Slowing down through songs

[essexbasscat]

Hi again all

From hanging around here a bit, I can see that most of us observe certain re-occuring traits when playing with other musos. How we deal with them seems to vary enormously, but some issues tend to be fairly common.



One topic I havn't noticed coming up too much is the fine art of keeping a constant tempo. On the instruction vids, most say almost universally near the beginning, 'always practice with a metronome'.

People that take the exam boards on classical stuff seem to develop a fine instinct for keeping a steady tempo. What's more, the more practiced can keep a tempo, intentionally change it then return to the same earlier tempo, as with prog rock.

Some bands are sooo tight with tempo and playing together that it almost seems to be a trademark i.e. Rosanna by Toto.



Then there's all the rest. I find many bands tend to slow down through numbers. It may start out ok, but if the drummer gets tired he may slow it down. Or sometimes it just seems that a lot of players don't seem to have the instinct for keeping a steady tempo.


There was a band I played with years ago that covered 'My Sharona' by the knack. They used to slow down every performance and I eventually got tired of noticing it, but saying nothing to keep the peace.

The day came when I said to myself ENOUGH! We all started out with a good tempo but after not too long, someone started to pull over and slow down. This time however, I stuck to the same tempo and did not join in the mutual 'slowing down by unspoken consent'.

I kept the same tempo relentessly, the way the record does. After a while, I started to notice my fellow band members were beginning to show signs of varying discomfort, ranging from the forced smile to er, well, not exactly enjoying it. At the end of the number. the drummer called me something I won't repeat here and the guitarist came over to me and asked me why I didn't slow down as it made him work really hard.

As the guitarist's words hung in the air, a member of the audience came over, shook my hand and congratulated me on being the only band member that held the song together. He also said it was rare to find a band that could do it. Hmmmm


Does anyone else find the same thing happening ? How do you deal with it ? Does it cause rows ?

Please, do tell. G'wan

T

[Beedster]

We have the opposite problem, our vocalist tends to rush to the first beat of the bar, especially in choruses, often tugging the drummer with him. It's great that the drummer has a good enough ear to to stick with the singer, but really frustrating as the bass player trying to keep things on a steady tempo. IME most inexperienced musicians assume that it's all about staying with the drummer, and further assume that drummers have some inherent neural metronome. All too often the member of the band who's trying to hold it together gets it in the neck for "not staying on the beat".

Chris

[wateroftyne]

Any sort of speeding up or slowing down, if it detracts from the song, drives me nuts, as does playing stuff too quickly in general.

Any band I've been in that does it has become an ex-band fairly quickly..!

[allighatt0r]

The bass is after all a member of the rhythm section, so we should really be expected to be a tempo setter along with the drummer, so if the drummer starts to waiver, we should hold our ground! Right?

Bassists of the world unite, our fight against speeding up or slowing down during songs has only just begun!

[Sarah5string]

I've found in my previous bands the drummer has ALWAYS sped songs up. Without fail. We all had to try and keep up with him otherwise he'd accuse US of not keeping time. How does that work?

Edited January 21, 2010 by Sarah5string

[jakenewmanbass]

I think bass players are quite sensitive to this, assuming they themselves have good time, mainly because we are the band member that hears all, which in turn is why so many bass players are producers.
For me it's what sorts the men out from the boys although even very good time keepers will sway sometimes (me included) and they have to be man enough to be told. When you are with a band that all feels the same way and all the members listen like you do then you're in heaven.
I've been lucky and played with some really phenomenal drummers, so to a certain extent I've been spoiled.

[dannybuoy]

In my old band we had a drummer that used to slow down throughout a song, and throughout the set. He didn't last long! A later drummer used to play everything too fast and get obnoxious if we asked her to slow it down because she had a degree in music and we clearly didn't know what we were talking about. The guitarist / songwriter used to just follow the freakly little metronome in his own head rather than me or the drummer and I felt that I was the only one holding it together.

I'm not in said band anymore!

[jakenewmanbass]

For those of you having problems with arguments over tempos in rehearsal or on gigs it's simple. Take a metronome to the practice room, listen to it before to get the desired tempo and listen to it after to see if you've kept it.
Most good drummers and MDs in the pro circuit carry metronomes.

[essexbasscat]

Y'know folks, I'm soooo glad that others are noticing similar problems and not just with slowing down, but speeding up too. But if we maintain a steady tempo when all else wobble, are we being antisocial in some way? or are we being protectors of the faith ?

Why is it naturally assumed the drummer is the tempo king, when in fact they are often directly responsible for giving it the 'pints of stella' effect ?

T

[chris_b]

The drummers I play with are always spot on. The only tempo problems are usually when a guitarist has started the number too fast!

All criticism should be constructive but if some one in the band can't keep to the tempo they have to be told. Problems have to be put right and no one in a band should be above learning and improving.

[xgsjx]

One of my bands have a similar issue now and again. Not so much slowing down or speeding up as the song progresses, but someone slowing down or speeding up if the song starts at their not desired tempo.

[arsenic]

I think I covered one of my experiences in this post [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=69937&view=findpost&p=710591"]HERE[/url], on the thread about playing in a band with people you don't get on with.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='chris_b' post='719836' date='Jan 21 2010, 09:29 AM']The drummers I play with are always spot on. The only tempo problems are usually when a guitarist has started the number too fast!

All criticism should be constructive but if some one in the band can't keep to the tempo they have to be told. Problems have to be put right and no one in a band should be above learning and improving.[/quote]


A very fair comment. It's not always the drummer and no-one is perfect.

T

[KennysFord]

Then there's the drummers that can keep good time but over play.

[Paul_C]

I did a dep gig for some mates a while ago (on drums) and at the first rehearsal confused the guitarist on one song because I didn't speed up during his solo like their usual drummer

[Tee]

I hate it when drummers change the tempo. I also hate it when they get offended, when i tell them, as if it's impossible for them not to keep it constant.
As well as playing in bands, i've played to a drum machine for over 15 years, so i know what a nice, solid, non-fluctuating beat feels like.
I agree, we bassists hear everything, while all other parties generally only listen to themselves.

[jezzaboy]

Our drummer cant keep time to save his life! Sometimes I wonder if it`s me that`s slowing or speeding up but the only virtue I have is good timekeeping.
Sometimes he will play a song at the right tempo and the next time he drags it out. Or else he starts a song at one speed and speeds up as the song goes along! Does ma heid right in. If it wasn`t for the fact that he`s a nice guy......But being a nice guy can only work for so long.

Jez

[Commando Jack]

My personal view is, like pitch, that tempo should fluctuate: enough to make it human, and not enough that it detracts from the song.

I'd also say that playing in front of, or behind the beat deliberately is valid and can add to the song immensely. However, IME less experienced musicians will slow down or speed up because they think you're slowing down, then accuse you of slowing the song down!


I'll also just leave this link [url="http://musicmachinery.com/2009/03/02/in-search-of-the-click-track/"]here[/url] for everyone who believes that tempo should always remain constant, and link to the [url="http://static.echonest.com/bpmexp/bpmexp.html"]Echo Nest BPM Explorer[/url], in case anyone wants to try out some of their own recordings.

P.S. Slowing the song down gradually over time because you're getting tired is not valid in my eyes. If the song needs a steady tempo, play one!

[razze06]

I would like to mention the "Jekill and Hyde" effect, by virtue of which a song is rehearsed at an agreed pace, with only minimal or acceptable fluctuations in tempo, and then get sped up or down vastly when performing live in front of an audience, causing discomfort and panic in some or all band members. My personal "bete noire" is Town called malice, which invariably gets performed at cramp-inducing tempo in front of a paying audience...

[Lfalex v1.1]

The Italians have a word for drummer fatigue;

[i]Decelerando[/i], I believe is the term!

I was listening to an old live recording recently, and you can hear me trying to "pull" the drummer back into time by over-emphasizing beat "1" of each bar (it was 4/4 rock)

That particular band metamorphosed from loose wishy-washy indie to nigh-on precise heavy metal delivery (whilst keeping many of the same songs), depending on the members.

A guitarist/ drummer friend of mine replaced their orignal drummer. Which perked them up a lot.
There was an internal rift and one guitarist and the bassist left.
The drummer friend of mine moved over to guitars (his delivery is very punctual!)
I joined. Which perked them up a lot more
We got another drummer (as detailed in the live scenario above)
He became ill, and we had another drummer dep for a few gigs, and he was the icing on the cake.
So much so that the lead singer got a bit upset that our delivery was becoming more of a feature than the songs!
That said, we could be very dynamic throughout the course of a song.

It's all about the combination of musicians in the band, and their view of how music should be played in terms of tempo.
A solid drummer and rhythm guitar along with a tight bassist are a formidable team.

[Clarky]

My punk band tends to play everything at 120 MPH (way faster than the recorded versions). Towards the end of our set we do noticeably tire in each song, especially our ultra-fast closer. However, I think only we notice as its still damn fast! Almost always the drummer is first to go and we slow to match. Can't blame him as its like an aerobic workout and - as I say - I think only we notice.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='Commando Jack' post='719914' date='Jan 21 2010, 10:55 AM']My personal view is, like pitch, that tempo should fluctuate: enough to make it human, and not enough that it detracts from the song.

I'd also say that playing in front of, or behind the beat deliberately is valid and can add to the song immensely. However, IME less experienced musicians will slow down or speed up because they think you're slowing down, then accuse you of slowing the song down!


I'll also just leave this link [url="http://musicmachinery.com/2009/03/02/in-search-of-the-click-track/"]here[/url] for everyone who believes that tempo should always remain constant, and link to the [url="http://static.echonest.com/bpmexp/bpmexp.html"]Echo Nest BPM Explorer[/url], in case anyone wants to try out some of their own recordings.

P.S. Slowing the song down gradually over time because you're getting tired is not valid in my eyes. If the song needs a steady tempo, play one![/quote]


+1 to a lot of this. Yes, varying tempo as a deliberate tool can be very effective. However, I've also heard some try to use this reason as an excuse for poor musicianship. To me at least, it's always pretty clear what's really going on.

T

[Bilbo]

I am not a total nazi when it comes to timekeeping but it is important that a band has some collective sense of what the organic time feel is. It doesn't have to be metromic but it does have to be musical. I usually only know one or two drummers in any area with whom I am able to lock in and groove with. The rest vary from ok to downright bad. IME, its as much attitudinal as anything. There is one drummer in Suffolk who is legendary amongst other drummers for his technical skills but I will never book him because he is so 'drum' orientated that his contributions to the music are completely destructive. He can speed up and slow down quite markedly but the man problem is he is so convinced of his own worth that he won't be told and consequently can't address the issue. The main issue is not his abilities, it is his tendency to be so into his own playing that he is not engaging in any musical sense with what anyone else is doing. That is bad enough but to react like a child when it is drawn to his attention (sulking!!) is a step too far. Life is too short to play with musicians who are making you sound like a git. Slowing down or speeding up are just one of many ways that a poor musician can undermine a performance.

[cheddatom]

Playing the bass, yeh, it really winds me up. I used to point it out to the drummer, and he'd take it badly but try and work on it. Since i've been playing the drums, it's become obvious to me just how difficult it is to retain a constant tempo.

If I don't think, and just play, and everyone else stays at the same tempo, it's OK. However, as soon as I think for one second "have I slowed down? have I sped up?" then I get paranoid and feel like I should try to fix it, and then paranoid that if I "fix it" i'll ruin it!

So yeh, it's hard.

[Doddy]

Sometimes in a live situation the tempo will fluctuate slightly-usually quicker-and you just have to go with
it,especially if the band shifts together. I do hate it when the tempo slows noticably though.
If the drummer is tiring,I find that it is generally down to their technique not being up to scratch. The guys who have got
it together can pretty much play all night without a lot of physical effort,and won't tire as quickly. It's the same with bass players-
if the right hand is tiring it needs working on a bit more.
Ultimately,tempo is the responsibility of the entire band-not one particular member.