Annoying Twit Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 (edited) [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-1980s-Aria-Matsumoku-Made-Japanese-Shiro-Bass-/320609897674?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item4aa5d6ccca"]Shiro Bass[/url]. Listing claims that it's Matsumoku made, but in previous threads by Jon disagree. Wherever it was made (and my money's on Jon ), I think it looks very nice. Fair bit of the right type of wear on the back though. Edited October 28, 2010 by Annoying Twit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted October 28, 2010 Author Share Posted October 28, 2010 [quote name='Annoying Twit' post='1004327' date='Oct 28 2010, 08:25 PM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-1980s-Aria-Matsumoku-Made-Japanese-Shiro-Bass-/320609897674?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item4aa5d6ccca"]Shiro Bass[/url]. Listing claims that it's Matsumoku made, but in previous threads by Jon disagree. Wherever it was made (and my money's on Jon ), I think it looks very nice. Fair bit of the right type of wear on the back though.[/quote] This is the same one that sold for £128 a couple of weeks ago: [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Shiro-Aria-Bass-80s-Japan-/220678047984"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Shiro-Aria-Bass-80s-...n-/220678047984[/url] Seller is covering his gyppo-flip profiteering attempt by not leaving feedback - but this is the BC JapCrap Squad, sunshine, we know your type and all your little tricks. Certainly doesn't look like a Matsumoku - and tbh there's no reason why it should be. Shiro may be an Arai Co brand but they didn't exclusively use Matsumoku - Kasuga LP copies have turned up with Aria logos so there's every reason to think if this doesn't look like a Mat then likely it ain't one. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Bassassin' post='1004557' date='Oct 28 2010, 11:36 PM']Certainly doesn't look like a Matsumoku - and tbh there's no reason why it should be. Shiro may be an Arai Co brand but they didn't exclusively use Matsumoku - Kasuga LP copies have turned up with Aria logos so there's every reason to think if this doesn't look like a Mat then likely it ain't one.[/quote] Matsumoku, Matsumoto, Matsuoka - hell's bells, all those Japanese names just sound the same! Shiro instruments had no connection with Matsumoku, but were manufactured by the highly-regarded acoustic guitar company, Matsuoka. Some sources suggest that Shiro instruments were high-end, which is probably true of Shiro acoustics (of which there are some models), but these electric models are better thought of as the first tentative steps into a new and exciting world taken by a long-established factory - footsteps which, ultimately, proved stumbling. A number of models - copies of Gibson standards, such as Les Paul, SG and 335 models, and originals, such as SE (Solid Electric) guitars and basses - were produced, starting in the early 70s, through the late 70s (possibly ending in 1980). (Having played an SE guitar some years back, I thought the general quality was fairly good, but that the performance was let down by poorly thought-out electrics and inferior quality hardware to Aria Pro II instruments.) Matsuoka also had connections to Hoshino Gakki, manufacturing certain nylon and steel string guitars for the Ibanez and Tama brands, and given the locations of both organisations, in Nagoya, appear to have used some of the same parts suppliers (seen in the bridge assemblies and control knobs featured on Shiro SE models). Edited October 29, 2010 by noelk27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 We (speaking more widely than just for this form) really need a Japanese Instruments Wiki or something so that all this information can be stored and easily accessible. Searching online does get some information, but if there was a wiki, and this info was put into it, it would make things so much easier. Wikipedia won't work as their requirements for external documentation/referencing of information is too strict. £128 does seem a good price for the Shiro bass, but £249 (or whatever) not so much. I don't think I'd want to pay more for the Shiro than I would for one of the neck through Lincoln basses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted October 29, 2010 Author Share Posted October 29, 2010 [quote name='noelk27' post='1004656' date='Oct 29 2010, 01:47 AM']Matsuoka also had connections to Hoshino Gakki, manufacturing certain nylon and steel string guitars for the Ibanez and Tama brands, and given the locations of both organisations, in Nagoya, appear to have used some of the same parts suppliers (seen in the bridge assemblies and control knobs featured on Shiro SE models).[/quote] Is the bass in question from the SE range? As I said when this came up previously, [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=7473&view=findpost&p=983921"]the bridge is identical to the one on my Cimar[/url] - which is from the era when the Cimar brand was controlled by Hoshino and was marketed as an Ibanez sub-brand. Early Cimar copies are very obviously not from Fujigen, and while the later original designs seem more consistent with Fujigen, there are some curious anomalies here & there. Could it be that Cimars were simply rebranded Matsuoka products? Have to admit Matsuoka is new to me, probably because I have little knowledge of Japanese acoustic guitar manufacture - but this adds an intriguing new level of confusion to the mix! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 [quote name='Annoying Twit' post='1004960' date='Oct 29 2010, 11:45 AM']We (speaking more widely than just for this form) really need a Japanese Instruments Wiki or something so that all this information can be stored and easily accessible. Searching online does get some information, but if there was a wiki, and this info was put into it, it would make things so much easier.[/quote] I've never heard Jon being called "Wiki" before. Hey Jon, have you got a Wiki side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted October 30, 2010 Author Share Posted October 30, 2010 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='1005679' date='Oct 29 2010, 07:58 PM']I've never heard Jon being called "Wiki" before. Hey Jon, have you got a Wiki side?[/quote] Nice as pie, me. But I do appear to be a suppository of useless and frequently ill-researched & insupportable (mis)information. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 [quote name='Bassassin' post='1005093' date='Oct 29 2010, 12:50 PM']Is the bass in question from the SE range? As I said when this came up previously, [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=7473&view=findpost&p=983921"]the bridge is identical to the one on my Cimar[/url] - which is from the era when the Cimar brand was controlled by Hoshino and was marketed as an Ibanez sub-brand. Early Cimar copies are very obviously not from Fujigen, and while the later original designs seem more consistent with Fujigen, there are some curious anomalies here & there. Could it be that Cimars were simply rebranded Matsuoka products? Have to admit Matsuoka is new to me, probably because I have little knowledge of Japanese acoustic guitar manufacture - but this adds an intriguing new level of confusion to the mix! J.[/quote] No, the SE series was much closer in design to the Aria Pro II TS (Thor Sound) series (although with a hint of SB style). Both the Shiro SE and APII TS used the same neck-thru construction, with three wide pieces of maple and two thin pieces of walnut, capped with rosewood touchboards. Only the top-of-the-range SE models featured brass nuts, however, but both series shared the cream/ivory pickups and mounts. All the Shiro models featured the "horseshoe" type bridge, also found on your Cimar. The TS series appeared in the APII catalogue close to the time that the Shiro SE series was dropped. This Shiro bass was in the CS series that stylistically has more in common with the APII CS (Cardinal Sound) series. Again, the CS series appeared in the APII catalogue close to the time that the Shiro CS series was dropped. After dropping the CS, Shiro ceased production of electric guitars and basses. When looking at the timings, Shiro models first appeared around the time that Aria moved from producing Arai Diamond models, and concentrated on Aria "copy" models. Given the heritage and reputation of Matsuoka, and remembering that Aria were as much an importer/exporter and distributor as a "manufacturer" in the late 60s/early70s, viewing the Shiro models as Aria's first attempt to produce a fully-formed line of "original" models is, perhaps, the correct approach. The Shiro models lack some of the refinements that can be seen in the likes of the APII PE series (debuting in '76), SB series (debuting in '77), and RS series (debuting in '79), developed by Hayashi-san, and manufactured at Matsumoku, but are attractive and interesting designs in their own right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted October 30, 2010 Author Share Posted October 30, 2010 Thanks Noel, that's fascinating stuff & some very persuasive ideas. Don't suppose you have any catalogues or promo literature? I'd love to see some pics of the Matsuoka-made Shiros. Would you think a Matsuoka/Cimar connection had any credence? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Bassassin' post='1006210' date='Oct 30 2010, 12:19 PM']Thanks Noel, that's fascinating stuff & some very persuasive ideas. Don't suppose you have any catalogues or promo literature? I'd love to see some pics of the Matsuoka-made Shiros. Would you think a Matsuoka/Cimar connection had any credence? J.[/quote] Not that my research has been forensic, but what I've uncovered does lead me to believe that the Shiro line is the "missing link" between the Arai/Aria and Aria Pro II lines. That both Shiro Arai and Ryoji Matsuoka were men of similar ages, were teachers of classical guitar, were both based in Nagoya-shi, in Chikusa-ku and Nakagawa-ku respectively, and both went on to have substantial involvements in the building of nylon string and steel string guitars, it seems unsurprising that Arai would approach Matsuoka, among others, to develop a line of original guitar models. Arai had previously distributed and exported Matsuoka's classical guitars, a relationship established in the 50s or early 60s, so Matsuoka, who was a respected luthier and who owned his own workshops and small factory, was well positioned to fulfill design, development and manufacturing duties for a line of original guitars for Arai. (Hopefully I'll be able to confirm certain details of the Arai-Matsuoka relationship in the near future.) As for product literature, I have one brochure for the Shiro SE guitar line and a few other product images and catalogue scans I've been able to source on the web, but not a wealth of materials by any measure. (At some point I'll get around to scanning all the catalogues and product literature I've amassed. Pressures of work allowing!) Now that the potential Cimar and Kasuga connections have been drawn to my attention, I'll investigate this further whenever the names come up while I'm researching Aria, but it's not something I'm aware of at this time. As all JapCrap aficionados probably know, however, the concentration of guitar manufacturers in Nagoya, and across Aichi, not to mention in Nagano and Shizuoka, makes identifying exact relationships and tie-ups somewhat hazardous (to mental health and to social life). Someone who knows more than me needs to write a book, and spare me the headaches! Edited October 30, 2010 by noelk27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tino Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 [quote name='Bassassin' post='1006210' date='Oct 30 2010, 11:19 AM']Thanks Noel, that's fascinating stuff & some very persuasive ideas. Don't suppose you have any catalogues or promo literature? I'd love to see some pics of the Matsuoka-made Shiros. Would you think a Matsuoka/Cimar connection had any credence? J.[/quote] [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Electra-X-940-and-full-set-modules-/180581376353?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item2a0b7d2161"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Electra-X-940-and-fu...=item2a0b7d2161[/url] Ok not a bass but a beauty none the less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 [quote name='tino' post='1007169' date='Oct 31 2010, 12:43 PM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Electra-X-940-and-full-set-modules-/180581376353?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item2a0b7d2161"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Electra-X-940-and-fu...=item2a0b7d2161[/url] Ok not a bass but a beauty none the less[/quote] If we had a non-bass sticky thread, then we could also discuss other stuff, but people who don't want to see (e.g.) six string llistings could ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tino Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Annoying Twit' post='1007335' date='Oct 31 2010, 01:53 PM']If we had a non-bass sticky thread, then we could also discuss other stuff, but people who don't want to see (e.g.) six string llistings could ignore it.[/quote] I have understanding but its Jap and not crap.....however my Ibanez bass is back on the bay......the buyer hadnt the funds.....its like the bloody things attached to me and aint ever gonna leave home. Also putting a Maya Telecaster bass on there later today once I have a few pics [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180581429671"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...em=180581429671[/url] Pics on the bay Edited October 31, 2010 by tino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OLD-VINTAGE-RELIC-SG-STYLE-ELECTRIC-BASS-GUITAR-/110605747537?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item19c09dc551"]£79 BIN SG bass.[/url] tempted to buy to flip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted October 31, 2010 Author Share Posted October 31, 2010 Tino - I have to say you're dementedly but oddly endearingly optimistic with your prices! That aside - bloody hell man the Electra's stunning - I don't know how you can part with that, & while I doubt you'll get the BIN, you might get a bid or two... There really aren't many of these in the UK - I don't know if they were ever officially imported here, being a US domestic brand. Electras were actually made by a number of different factories so you might not strictly be accurate saying it's a Matsumoku - although having said that, I dunno who did make this one! Oli - that £75 EB-0 is an Avon - if you do decide to go for it, I have one of the metal pin-badges if you're interested. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 [quote name='Bassassin' post='1008006' date='Oct 31 2010, 11:19 PM']Electras were actually made by a number of different factories so you might not strictly be accurate saying it's a Matsumoku - although having said that, I dunno who did make this one![/quote] Setting aside that there were two importers using the Electra brand for the US domestic market, this Electra would have been manufactured for St Louis Music. SLM ordered stock from every major Japanese, and some Korean, factories. Very little of Electra branded product was manufactured by Matsumoku, until the Electra line was subsumed into the Westone brand. Unless this Electra has a Matsumoku serial number, on the reverse of the headstock, it's not a Matsumoku made instrument. If it does have a serial then you can easily identify its year of manufacture. The only exception would be the Custom/Limited Edition made Matsumoku product, which would have a custom code stamped in the pickup cavity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tino Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 [quote name='noelk27' post='1008059' date='Nov 1 2010, 12:24 AM']Setting aside that there were two importers using the Electra brand for the US domestic market, this Electra would have been manufactured for St Louis Music. SLM ordered stock from every major Japanese, and some Korean, factories. Very little of Electra branded product was manufactured by Matsumoku, until the Electra line was subsumed into the Westone brand. Unless this Electra has a Matsumoku serial number, on the reverse of the headstock, it's not a Matsumoku made instrument. If it does have a serial then you can easily identify its year of manufacture. The only exception would be the Custom/Limited Edition made Matsumoku product, which would have a custom code stamped in the pickup cavity.[/quote] It has serial number impressed just like a gibbo,also in the effects cavity there are more numbers....never took the pups out so no idea whats to be found there and it was supplied bySLM,by other paperwork that came with it I beleive it to be before 84,but I will have a nose in it later... I also have the tree of life 335 as used by Bishop coming on the bay next week just waiting on the potting to be done to sort out slight microphonic issues it has..Stunning 335 type guitar and I beleive fairly rare over here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tino Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Bassassin' post='1008006' date='Oct 31 2010, 11:19 PM']Tino - I have to say you're dementedly but oddly endearingly optimistic with your prices! That aside - bloody hell man the Electra's stunning - I don't know how you can part with that, & while I doubt you'll get the BIN, you might get a bid or two... There really aren't many of these in the UK - I don't know if they were ever officially imported here, being a US domestic brand. Electras were actually made by a number of different factories so you might not strictly be accurate saying it's a Matsumoku - although having said that, I dunno who did make this one! Oli - that £75 EB-0 is an Avon - if you do decide to go for it, I have one of the metal pin-badges if you're interested. J.[/quote] Im often most optimistic having veiwed my intention though a mistyoptic I have interest on the Ibby from Germany.The Electra is a beauty (one of 2 I have owned a while)the modules are commanding good money on there own stateside.. but wait to you see the Electra 335 I have with vine inlays to neck....Be on the Bay this time next week,exceptionally rare in the UK and more so in its amazing condition. Edited November 1, 2010 by tino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted November 1, 2010 Author Share Posted November 1, 2010 [quote name='tino' post='1008749' date='Nov 1 2010, 05:25 PM']Im often most optimistic having veiwed my intention though a mistyoptic I have interest on the Ibby from Germany.The Electra is a beauty (one of 2 I have owned a while)the modules are commanding good money on there own stateside.. but wait to you see the Electra 335 I have with vine inlays to neck....Be on the Bay this time next week,exceptionally rare in the UK and more so in its amazing condition.[/quote] Very interested to see the vine 335 - the vine/carved LPs & SGs are Kasugas, near-identical to their own versions so obviously I'm wondering if the semi will be too. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tino Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Bassassin' post='1008783' date='Nov 1 2010, 05:50 PM']Very interested to see the vine 335 - the vine/carved LPs & SGs are Kasugas, near-identical to their own versions so obviously I'm wondering if the semi will be too. J.[/quote] Jon This link is the same model as mine,with the exception it does not have the fujigen vines and mine is somewhat better condition prectically mint with original case and paperwork,I am currently sorting an issue these models had with the pickups but its no big deal,just needed potting. [url="http://cgi.ebay.com/1980-ELectra-ES335-Classic-Elvin-MIJ-/200452963316?pt=Guitar&hash=item2eabed7bf4"]http://cgi.ebay.com/1980-ELectra-ES335-Cla...=item2eabed7bf4[/url] T Edited November 1, 2010 by tino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazza1 Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 (edited) Aria Pro ii XRB - pointy headstocky!! I think this may be from the late 80's? With a case too. Seems quite a bargain. [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/electric-bass-guitar-aria-pro-2-xrb-/220692018660?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item336244f5e4"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/electric-bass-guitar...=item336244f5e4[/url] Edited November 4, 2010 by tazza1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 OK, it's not JapCrap but it can claim close kinship. [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Gherson-1960-70s-Italian-Jazz-Bass-Nitro-NICE-/320605596157?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item4aa59529fd"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Gherson-1960...=item4aa59529fd[/url] I bought this bass recently, and I've just posted some soundclips. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=109672&pid=1014201&st=0&#entry1014201"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...p;#entry1014201[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 I might go after this - I've always like the Mosrite The Ventures bass but they're well outside what I'm able to pay just now. [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bass-Guitar-/280585933754?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item41543993ba"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bass-Guitar-/2805859...=item41543993ba[/url] There's virtually nothing about Sheerline on a quick Google; what do the panel think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted November 7, 2010 Author Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='1015096' date='Nov 7 2010, 11:19 AM']I might go after this - I've always like the Mosrite The Ventures bass but they're well outside what I'm able to pay just now. [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bass-Guitar-/280585933754?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item41543993ba"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bass-Guitar-/2805859...=item41543993ba[/url] There's virtually nothing about Sheerline on a quick Google; what do the panel think?[/quote] Not encountered the brand before - or another bass the same as this, as far as I can remember. This looks like a cross between those Aria A200 type things & the budget Mosrite inspired designs that occasionally come up. Shame there aren't better pics but it does look kind of cool. Always had a soft spot for the Mosrite shape (Ramones fan!) and if I ever get the chance of an ultra cheap [url="http://www.ariaguitars.com/int/03_products/pro_eb_dmb_380.html"]Aria Diamond reissue[/url] I might find it hard to pass up! Jon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/bass-guitar-/320615327841?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item4aa629a861"]Les Paul type thing[/url]. Kind of tempting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.