Vintage MIJ (formerly J@pCr@p) Spotting

[tino]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='959896' date='Sep 17 2010, 08:35 PM']Congratulations! I'm sure she'll really enjoy it. So much more interesting to buy a classic instrument than to buy yet another Squier.

Edit: [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MUSIMA-ELECTRA-DELUXE-BBASS-PROJECT-1970s-/220669891951?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3360f3556f"]Weird looking 70s green thing[/url][/quote]
Whats weird is having looked at your post my GD has just asked can we paint the tele that colour or bright orange.....NO WE CANNOT....obviously I never actually said that to her

[arsenic]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='959896' date='Sep 17 2010, 08:35 PM']Congratulations! I'm sure she'll really enjoy it. So much more interesting to buy a classic instrument than to buy yet another Squier.

Edit: [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MUSIMA-ELECTRA-DELUXE-BBASS-PROJECT-1970s-/220669891951?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3360f3556f"]Weird looking 70s green thing[/url][/quote]

I've looked at that a couple of times today - not sure about it, but I love the colour.

From a quick google, it looks like it's from East Germany - [url="http://cheesyguitars.com/musima_elektra_deluxe_b.html"]Linky thing[/url].

Wouldn't be to difficult to get it working, although the tuner posts look really small, and it may require a "drilling out" to get some to fit.....but hey! what do I know.

Edited September 17, 2010 by arsenic

[Bassassin]

I was nearly tempted to buy a Musima guitar I found at a Berlin flea market last year - really curious old thing, in very good condition - it was only the fact that it would have to have come back in the luggage hold that stopped me!

One of the odd things was a very strange output socket - not designed for a conventional jack or anything I'd seen before. I presume the green bass has already been modded.

J.

[arsenic]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='960103' date='Sep 18 2010, 02:41 AM']One of the odd things was a very strange output socket - not designed for a conventional jack or anything I'd seen before. I presume the green bass has already been modded.[/quote]

It looks like it has a strat style jack socket on the front - the same as the green one at the bottom of the page I linked to (which was also from e-bay) The red one at the top has has a pickguard mounted one - From the pictures, I can't tell if either is a standard jack or not.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='arsenic' post='960118' date='Sep 18 2010, 07:02 AM']It looks like it has a strat style jack socket on the front - the same as the green one at the bottom of the page I linked to (which was also from e-bay) The red one at the top has has a pickguard mounted one - From the pictures, I can't tell if either is a standard jack or not.[/quote]
Actually, just looked through the Musimas on Cheesyguitars and many of them have Strat-type jacks or conventional-looking sockets. Likely that either later production was changed to make them more compatible or the one I saw had a weird mod. Wish I'd taken some pics now!

J.

[Musky]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='960175' date='Sep 18 2010, 09:26 AM']Actually, just looked through the Musimas on Cheesyguitars and many of them have Strat-type jacks or conventional-looking sockets. Likely that either later production was changed to make them more compatible or the one I saw had a weird mod. Wish I'd taken some pics now!

J.[/quote]
It wasn't a weird co-ax type thing was it? I've come across that on an old early 60's cheapo before, though I can't remember the brand. I think it might have been a Rosetti or something.

[Annoying Twit]

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/cimer-mij-1970-s-not-fender-but-top-quality-copy-/300469695750?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item45f563b506"]Cimar Precision. Low start price.[/url]

[url="http://www.preloved.co.uk/fuseaction-adverts.showadvert/index-1033010009/826b9972.html"]WTF item on preloved[/url]

Edited September 19, 2010 by Annoying Twit

[allighatt0r]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='960909' date='Sep 19 2010, 07:59 AM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/cimer-mij-1970-s-not-fender-but-top-quality-copy-/300469695750?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item45f563b506"]Cimar Precision. Low start price.[/url]

[url="http://www.preloved.co.uk/fuseaction-adverts.showadvert/index-1033010009/826b9972.html"]WTF item on preloved[/url][/quote]

That Cimar headstock is the shape of the Ibanez Blazers... Are they the same beast?

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Musky' post='960205' date='Sep 18 2010, 10:05 AM']It wasn't a weird co-ax type thing was it? I've come across that on an old early 60's cheapo before, though I can't remember the brand. I think it might have been a Rosetti or something.[/quote]

It might well have been, I really don't remember too well! Like I said, if only I'd taken a picture!

[quote name='allighatt0r' post='961108' date='Sep 19 2010, 12:40 PM']That Cimar headstock is the shape of the Ibanez Blazers... Are they the same beast?[/quote]
Not the same, but closely related. The relationship between Cimar & Ibanez isn't entirely clear, but the Cimar "original" (well, ish) designs were made by Fujigen, like Ibanez, and marketed alongside Ibanez by brand owner Hoshino - sometimes as "Cimar by Ibanez". There was actually some complete crossover - the early Blazer design (with the big single pickup & skinny headstock) was also sold branded as a Cimar Stinger.

So this isn't exactly the same as a Blazer but you can expect the same quality components & build. It's later than the guy claims - the serial looks like 1981 to me - which puts it in the same timeframe as the Blazers.

J.

[Soloshchenko]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='961166' date='Sep 19 2010, 01:37 PM']Not the same, but closely related. The relationship between Cimar & Ibanez isn't entirely clear, but the Cimar "original" (well, ish) designs were made by Fujigen, like Ibanez, and marketed alongside Ibanez by brand owner Hoshino - sometimes as "Cimar by Ibanez". There was actually some complete crossover - the early Blazer design (with the big single pickup & skinny headstock) was also sold branded as a Cimar Stinger.

So this isn't exactly the same as a Blazer but you can expect the same quality components & build. It's later than the guy claims - the serial looks like 1981 to me - which puts it in the same timeframe as the Blazers.

J.[/quote]

Interesting. Do you know if there was any cross over between Ibanez and Columbus? Reason I ask is because I've recently bought a Columbus bass with a remarkably similar headstock design to this:



[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260663833613&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT"]Here's the columbus I've bought, check out the headstock pic[/url]

Cheers for you reply in advance mate, as I've said before, you should really write a book!

Also, any dating hints/advice or extra info on my new purchase would be welcome.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Soloshchenko

[Annoying Twit]

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hondo-11-1970s-Bass-/190446655042?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item2c57815642"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hondo-11-1970s-Bass-...=item2c57815642[/url]

Fairly Matsumoku looking Hondo II here, but not quite Matsumoku looking enough for me to be sure.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Soloshchenko' post='962506' date='Sep 20 2010, 06:25 PM']Interesting. Do you know if there was any cross over between Ibanez and Columbus? Reason I ask is because I've recently bought a Columbus bass with a remarkably similar headstock design to this:[/quote]
Apart from being Japanese & a Fender copy, there's no connection, I'm afraid. The main similarity in the pic you posted is the big chrome truss rod cover - these were very common on early Japanese Fender copies, probably simply down to the way factories were tooled up to make necks, and the available parts. Most factories sourced hardware from one or two parts manufacturers, hence there's a lot of crossover.

Anyway later Ibanez, and other basses built in the Fujigen Gakki factory have small white plastic truss rod covers, and eventually as the instruments got more accurate, they disappeared altogether, as did the Fender-type nuts. If you could put this Ibby & your Columbus side-by side there are a lot of differences - the Ibanez has a 3-piece neck, body construction is butcher-block as opposed to ply, the Columbus has round-end pickups while the Ibanez has more accurate square-ended ones and so on.

If you're interested, go through the early catalogues on [url="http://www.ibanez.ru/info/index.php?catalog"]this site[/url] and you'll get some idea of how Fujigen designs changed over the years.

You got a pretty good deal on that Columbus - I had one of these a few years back & actually managed to sell it for £170 - odd! These weren't built byFujigen, it's not clear who did build them, but many Columbus instruments are identical to Maya-branded guitars. Maya was owned by a company called Rokkomann, and it's believed they owned their own production facility, so that's a possibility.

Columbus is a UK rebrand, thought to have been imported by FCN, who also owned the Kimbara & Satellite brands. The Jazz copy is the Columbus N77 - here's one depicted in a 1974 catalogue:

[url="http://personal.inet.fi/surf/lorse/bellcatalogue/26.jpg"]http://personal.inet.fi/surf/lorse/bellcatalogue/26.jpg[/url]

The pic here looks like a factory catalogue shot - it's unbranded and there are some detail differences from yours if you look closely. I think it's probably an early version.

Jon.

[Soloshchenko]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='962821' date='Sep 20 2010, 10:52 PM']Apart from being Japanese & a Fender copy, there's no connection, I'm afraid. The main similarity in the pic you posted is the big chrome truss rod cover - these were very common on early Japanese Fender copies, probably simply down to the way factories were tooled up to make necks, and the available parts. Most factories sourced hardware from one or two parts manufacturers, hence there's a lot of crossover.

Anyway later Ibanez, and other basses built in the Fujigen Gakki factory have small white plastic truss rod covers, and eventually as the instruments got more accurate, they disappeared altogether, as did the Fender-type nuts. If you could put this Ibby & your Columbus side-by side there are a lot of differences - the Ibanez has a 3-piece neck, body construction is butcher-block as opposed to ply, the Columbus has round-end pickups while the Ibanez has more accurate square-ended ones and so on.

If you're interested, go through the early catalogues on [url="http://www.ibanez.ru/info/index.php?catalog"]this site[/url] and you'll get some idea of how Fujigen designs changed over the years.

You got a pretty good deal on that Columbus - I had one of these a few years back & actually managed to sell it for £170 - odd! These weren't built byFujigen, it's not clear who did build them, but many Columbus instruments are identical to Maya-branded guitars. Maya was owned by a company called Rokkomann, and it's believed they owned their own production facility, so that's a possibility.

Columbus is a UK rebrand, thought to have been imported by FCN, who also owned the Kimbara & Satellite brands. The Jazz copy is the Columbus N77 - here's one depicted in a 1974 catalogue:

[url="http://personal.inet.fi/surf/lorse/bellcatalogue/26.jpg"]http://personal.inet.fi/surf/lorse/bellcatalogue/26.jpg[/url]

The pic here looks like a factory catalogue shot - it's unbranded and there are some detail differences from yours if you look closely. I think it's probably an early version.

Jon.[/quote]

Wow, cheers for the info mate. As always, staggered by your knowledge on the subject and thanks for the links, amazing that the bass has put on just a healthy £20 vintage premium in 30 odd years!

Really chuffed with the deal, like you say, seemed cheap. The bass arrives on Wednesday so I'll post some pics, possibly on here. I don't think a £70 Columbus Jazz merits "Gear Porn" status. More like "Reader's wives".

This is possibly become the project bass I've been thinking of. Got some Mex Jazz PUs knocking about (maybe require some woodwork?) And want to do a nitro finish as I've never done one and I'm not a fan of the burst. We'll see how she looks when she arrives.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Soloshchenko' post='962833' date='Sep 20 2010, 11:10 PM']This is possibly become the project bass I've been thinking of. Got some Mex Jazz PUs knocking about (maybe require some woodwork?) And want to do a nitro finish as I've never done one and I'm not a fan of the burst. We'll see how she looks when she arrives.[/quote]
With luck the Mex pups should drop right in - I recently stuck a set of DiMarzio Model Js in my CSL Jazz, which had the same round-end pups. The holes seemed slightly oversize & they fitted no problem.

If you do a refin I'd recommend a solid colour - otherwise you'll have all those lovely lamination lines around the edges and on the contours - that's why they're solid black on the original burst!

J.

[Bloodaxe]

Padauk Red [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ARIA-PRO-II-CUSTOM-BODY-BASS-GUITAR-WOODEN-BODY-/250695458736?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3a5e9d1fb0"]SB-600[/url] with a "wooden body"! Whatever next?

Walnut [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Aria-Pro11-SB-1000-bass-guitar-genuine-vintage-example-/250699309378?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3a5ed7e142"]SB-1000[/url] No reserve & 5 days to run, watching with interest.

Sellers spiel is interesting. Do Aria do valuations now?

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='962895' date='Sep 21 2010, 03:23 AM']Walnut [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Aria-Pro11-SB-1000-bass-guitar-genuine-vintage-example-/250699309378?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3a5ed7e142"]SB-1000[/url] No reserve & 5 days to run, watching with interest.[/quote]

I tried to put a silly bid on this one, but I don't have an active paypal account linked to my ebay login, and my bid was barred.

[Bassassin]

The 99p no reserve SB's going to be interesting to watch - I think this sort of auction is the most accurate test of an instrument's true value.

I would be very surprised if Aria offered a valuation service - and other than an Ebay average I can't imagine what criteria such a valuation would be based on, since any vintage instrument is only worth what people are willing pay.

I suspect his Aria "value" is more likely based on the price of the reissue SB1000.

J.

[noelk27]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='962895' date='Sep 21 2010, 03:23 AM']Walnut [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Aria-Pro11-SB-1000-bass-guitar-genuine-vintage-example-/250699309378?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3a5ed7e142"]SB-1000[/url] No reserve & 5 days to run, watching with interest.

Sellers spiel is interesting. Do Aria do valuations now?[/quote]

The stock cookie-cutter description - someone should tell him the touchboards were initially jacaranda, thereafter ebony.

He's got a snowball in hell's chance of getting £1,500 for it, offering just a bass and case - he wants the original perspex overlay, toolkit, tag and brochure, and he'd still not get anywhere near. But if someone is offering £1,500 they can have one of the seven "unique" examples I own - two with all the additional candy.

[Soloshchenko]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='962876' date='Sep 21 2010, 12:47 AM']With luck the Mex pups should drop right in - I recently stuck a set of DiMarzio Model Js in my CSL Jazz, which had the same round-end pups. The holes seemed slightly oversize & they fitted no problem.

If you do a refin I'd recommend a solid colour - otherwise you'll have all those lovely lamination lines around the edges and on the contours - that's why they're solid black on the original burst!

J.[/quote]


Haha, yeah no worries mate, I'm thinking all black.

Will post pics to see what the body looks like without a finish, should be an all out horror show!

[Annoying Twit]

Ventura Jazz Bass. Not sure where these were made. [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-VENTURA-BASS-GUITAR-SUNBURST-PLEASE-TAKE-LOOK-/400156128105?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item5d2b29f369"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-VENTURA-BASS...=item5d2b29f369[/url]

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='963877' date='Sep 21 2010, 10:18 PM']Ventura Jazz Bass. Not sure where these were made. [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-VENTURA-BASS-GUITAR-SUNBURST-PLEASE-TAKE-LOOK-/400156128105?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item5d2b29f369"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-VENTURA-BASS...=item5d2b29f369[/url][/quote]
In China, about three years ago, by the looks of it! I've seen a few modern cheapos with the Ventura brand, they're no relation of the 60s/70s Ventura, owned by US importer C. Bruno & Co. Not exactly surprising that Ebay sellers would try & fob them off as such, though.

Jon.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='964027' date='Sep 22 2010, 02:04 AM']In China, about three years ago, by the looks of it! I've seen a few modern cheapos with the Ventura brand, they're no relation of the 60s/70s Ventura, owned by US importer C. Bruno & Co. Not exactly surprising that Ebay sellers would try & fob them off as such, though. [/quote]

Thanks Jon. I must admit that I was lazy posting this one without more research. Before I posted here I did a quick google, but when the first few links talked about them being "lawsuit" models and made in the "Hashino factory" (sic) I started losing the will to live a bit and there were other things I wanted to get on with. Like actual instrument practice

Edited September 22, 2010 by Annoying Twit

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='964171' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:02 AM']the first few links talked about them being "lawsuit" models and made in the "Hashino factory" (sic) I started losing the will to live[/quote]
There are a few Ventura enthusiast pages out there and they seem to feel the same way - they're at pains to point out that the copy-era stuff was Matsumoku and nothing to do with bloody Ibanez!

J.

[walplayer]

pointy headstock morris-

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1980s-JAPAN-MORRIS-MORIDAIRA-HURRICANE-PJ-BASS-COIL-TAP-/160483859969?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item255d955e01"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1980s-JAPAN-MORRIS-M...=item255d955e01[/url]

[arsenic]

Not come across one of [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Encore-Headless-4-String-Bass-Guitar-Black-/130434380452?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item1e5e7eb2a4"]these[/url] before - not even sure where it was made - I assume it originated from the far east somewhere