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Vintage MIJ (formerly J@pCr@p) Spotting


Bassassin

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[quote name='Bassassin' post='776077' date='Mar 16 2010, 10:58 AM']Interesting window full of JapCrap behind the bass...[/quote]

That's the same shop that had the Ibanez bolt-on project. They sent me an email in response to my ebay message saying that they don't have a website yet, but are working on it. But, they listed a fair number of old Japanese/Other instruments they had. The normal names, Kay, Columbus, Jedson, etc. They also say that they might be able to get things that I want.

BTW: If anyone's keeping track, I did get outbid for that Westone Thunder bass that I became worried about winning. Outbid by £7.

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Westone Concord Bass. Collection only. BIN of £80. Starting bid of £30. Doesn't look wonderful I must admit.

I'm presuming that this is Matsumoku made. Weren't the Concord guitars and basses among the first instruments released after the brand was created? EDIT: "Bought in the early 1980s".

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Westone-Concord-Bass-1_W0QQitemZ260571566933QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item3cab469355"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Westone-Concord-Bass...=item3cab469355[/url]

Edited by Annoying Twit
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[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='779749' date='Mar 19 2010, 01:41 PM']Westone Concord Bass. Collection only. BIN of £80. Starting bid of £30. Doesn't look wonderful I must admit.

I'm presuming that this is Matsumoku made. Weren't the Concord guitars and basses among the first instruments released after the brand was created? EDIT: "Bought in the early 1980s".

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Westone-Concord-Bass-1_W0QQitemZ260571566933QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item3cab469355"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Westone-Concord-Bass...=item3cab469355[/url][/quote]
Yes - these are Matsumoku. Surprised it's still there at 80 squids - if I was down in That London , I'd have it [s]and probably clean it up & gyppo-flip it[/s].

J.

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[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='780133' date='Mar 19 2010, 07:25 PM']How much do they usually go for? What would you value that particular one at in its current condition?[/quote]
I can't really tell much from the pics - it looks dull & grubby but the seller reckons "there's hardly a mark on it". I've had some absolutely foul guitars clean up beautifully so I think it would scrub up well.

As far as value's concerned - remember this thread from around Xmas:

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=71823"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=71823[/url]

That one sold for £170 ultimately - I think with this one I'd cross my fingers for £120 - £150, given a good Ebay ad.

J.

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Thanks, as always, Jon.

Here's a fretless Westone Thunder on Ebay. [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rare-Fretless-Westone-Thunder-I-A-Bass-Japanese-NR_W0QQitemZ120545577417QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item1c111389c9"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rare-Fretless-Weston...=item1c111389c9[/url]

There's sort of a story here. I think I might have owned one of these. In the mid 90s, I was getting nostalgic for my school days when I played some bass (if I could go back and tell myself to learn properly rather than just .... not, but never mind). So, I saw some bass ads somewhere, Loot or a paper or whereever), and there was a fretless bass for £80. So, I went and bought it. I don't remember much about it, but I think the name was West-something. What I remember of it though, makes me think it was one of these. Single split pickup and approximate shape. And black. So, maybe Westone or Westbury or something. It was originally a passive bass that the owner had modified to make it active. I remember he was selling it to buy a Wal. Remembered that bit, but not the brand of the one I bough! The Mick Karn connection. But, after buying it, it just sort of sat there. After a few years it was annoying me that I ad gone out and bought a fretless bass to start again on, not thinking it a good choice. So, having too much stuff, I gave it away on freecycle. I don't really regret it though, as if I decide I want one again, they are available. Now, the Ibanez Artist bass I had when a teenager, THAT I really wish I still had. But, C'est la vie.

Edited by Annoying Twit
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Neck through fretless precision bass with a vaguely SB1000 style colour scheme.

I like it!

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/P-Bass-style-fretless-guitar-Early-Japan-built-classic_W0QQitemZ270550188555QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item3efe0c420b"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/P-Bass-style-fretles...=item3efe0c420b[/url]

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[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='781024' date='Mar 20 2010, 06:39 PM']Neck through fretless precision bass with a vaguely SB1000 style colour scheme.

I like it!

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/P-Bass-style-fretless-guitar-Early-Japan-built-classic_W0QQitemZ270550188555QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item3efe0c420b"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/P-Bass-style-fretles...=item3efe0c420b[/url][/quote]
I've got a project one of these (fretted, maple board) which I bought from BCer Geoffbyrne last year. These are Satellites and almost certainly Korean, not MIJ. I'm ancient enough to remember these first appearing in the shops in 1980 and being quite impressed at a neck-through for £99! I was way too much of a snob to consider buying anything with "Satellite" written on it, though... :)

J.

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[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1976-Antoria-Les-Paul-Bass-Guitar-Japan-Fuji-Gen-Relic_W0QQitemZ260574013293QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item3cab6be76d"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1976-Antoria-Les-Pau...=item3cab6be76d[/url]

Antoria Les Paul-ish bass.

How well respected are the 70s Antoria basses and guitars? Being Fuji-gen, I'd expect good quality. But, someone who was a guitar shop worker in the 60s was reminiscing on the MLP forums, and he said that the CSL instruments, when they came out, were a real step up from the Antorias (etc.) that were being sold before then. So, how good does that make the Antoria instruments?

Edit: What an unusual looking bridge:

Edited by Annoying Twit
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[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='783811' date='Mar 23 2010, 06:50 PM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1976-Antoria-Les-Paul-Bass-Guitar-Japan-Fuji-Gen-Relic_W0QQitemZ260574013293QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item3cab6be76d"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1976-Antoria-Les-Pau...=item3cab6be76d[/url]

Antoria Les Paul-ish bass.

How well respected are the 70s Antoria basses and guitars? Being Fuji-gen, I'd expect good quality. But, someone who was a guitar shop worker in the 60s was reminiscing on the MLP forums, and he said that the CSL instruments, when they came out, were a real step up from the Antorias (etc.) that were being sold before then. So, how good does that make the Antoria instruments?

Edit: What an unusual looking bridge: [/quote]
Got a link to the post? Seems like an odd thing to say, because 70s Antorias were the exact same guitars as their Ibanez counterparts, right down to the model numbers. CSL was the house-brand of Charles Summerfield Ltd in Gateshead, who were UK importer for Ibanez at that point, so very likely they sourced their planks through Hoshini Gakki, Ibanez brand owner/exporter.

Antoria was owned & imported by J.T Coppock Ltd in Leeds - they traded with Hoshino to source 70s Antorias (according to an ex-Coppock employee who posts on the ICW board) and the guitars were identical to Ibanez but were significantly less expensive. If there's a pecking order of UK-market Fujigen JapCrap it generally goes Ibanez >> Antoria >> CSL. I would expect 70s CSLs to be pretty much exactly the same basic instruments as Antoria, with possibly some finish & detail differences on some models.

I've got a late 70s/early 80s CSL Jazz, but it was produced after Antoria changed hands & production went to Korea. Interestingly it's identical to a Cimar J copy which is from the era when Cimar was sourced from Fujigen and either owned or controlled by Hoshino.

J.

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[quote name='Bassassin' post='783938' date='Mar 23 2010, 08:30 PM']Got a link to the post? Seems like an odd thing to say, because 70s Antorias were the exact same guitars as their Ibanez counterparts, right down to the model numbers. CSL was the house-brand of Charles Summerfield Ltd in Gateshead, who were UK importer for Ibanez at that point, so very likely they sourced their planks through Hoshini Gakki, Ibanez brand owner/exporter.[/quote]

Here's the post. [url="http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/other-les-pauls/83356-anyone-expert-csl-guitars.html#post1614877"]http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/other-les-...tml#post1614877[/url] On re-reading, he does say that CSL was a major "upset" after only mentioning the "first" Antorias.

In searching for information on CSL, I ended up reading an interesting thread on the Ibanez Collector's Forum with posts from you!

Do you know which factory my Cimar Rickenfaker is likely to be from?

Edited by Annoying Twit
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[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='783984' date='Mar 23 2010, 09:02 PM']Do you know which factory my Cimar Rickenfaker is likely to be from?[/quote]
So far these are something of a mystery - no idea where they're from but it doesn't look like any of the usual suspects - Fujigen, ,Matsumoku, Kasuga etc. Cimars, judging by the [url="http://www.ibanez.co.jp/anniversary/index.html"]catalogues on the Ibanez site[/url] seem to go across a broad spectrum of quality - at the one end the crude budget stuff like many of [url="http://www.ibanez.co.jp/anniversary/2/3.jpg"]these[/url] and at the other, high quality near-replicas like your 'Faker or the set-neck LP [url="http://www.ibanez.co.jp/anniversary/14/2.jpg"]here[/url]. It's quite possible Cimars were sourced from several factories.

Really the only way we'll be able to find out where yours (or any of the others) came from is if an identical instrument comes up with a factory brand, or with an importer brand which we already know was sourced from a specific factory.

J.

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[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='783811' date='Mar 23 2010, 06:50 PM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1976-Antoria-Les-Paul-Bass-Guitar-Japan-Fuji-Gen-Relic_W0QQitemZ260574013293QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item3cab6be76d"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1976-Antoria-Les-Pau...=item3cab6be76d[/url]

Antoria Les Paul-ish bass.

How well respected are the 70s Antoria basses and guitars? Being Fuji-gen, I'd expect good quality. But, someone who was a guitar shop worker in the 60s was reminiscing on the MLP forums, and he said that the CSL instruments, when they came out, were a real step up from the Antorias (etc.) that were being sold before then. So, how good does that make the Antoria instruments?

Edit: What an unusual looking bridge: [/quote]
It's got a string dampener fitted - you can just make out the foam at the front of the bridge - you push the lever one way to make contact with the strings & the other way to move the dampener away from the strings. I had a Kasuga EB3 copy (made in the same factory as Tokais were I believe) with one fitted & I think they were also fitted to some Gibson EB0 & EB3's.

Edited by tazza1
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[quote name='tazza1' post='785367' date='Mar 25 2010, 12:13 AM']I had a Kasuga EB3 copy (made in the same factory as Tokais were I believe)[/quote]
Sort of - it seems that when Tokai started exporting to the US in the early 70s, initially they couldn't meet demand with their own production facility & outsourced to Kasuga Gakki, who were able to manufacture to the necessary replica-level standard.

Lots of Ebay spin stories about Kasuga being "made in the Tokai factory" have evolved from this!

J.

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[quote name='Musicman69' post='785397' date='Mar 25 2010, 01:27 AM']Just wondering.. is any of this fine-crafted firewood worth anything? I know yis love it but any monetary value?[/quote]

Absolutely loads of it comes up on ebay, so the selling value is well known.

I don't know the market like others, but just recently Westone Thunder basses have been going for about £100. Loads of stuff goes between £100 and £200. And the higher end such as SB1000 basses will go for several times that.

When I was a teenager I played bass. I had an Ibanez Artist bass. When I looked to see what one was worth, I only found one on sale, being sold by (as others describe him) "That German w***er" for £800! That doesn't set market value as that guy sells all sorts of stuff for unbelievably high prices. Or, "attempts to sell", I should say. However, I found a post where someone in the US had bought one for US$500 and considered that a notable bargain.

Did you see the picture of the Rickenfaker "project" that Jon sold for £180? Have a look in the Rickenfaker thread.

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[quote name='Musicman69' post='785397' date='Mar 25 2010, 01:27 AM']Just wondering.. is any of this fine-crafted firewood worth anything? I know yis love it but any monetary value?[/quote]
Depends what you mean by worth anything. With very few exceptions there's nothing that makes it into pre-CBS Fender value territory, but as the esteemed Mr Twit says, most JapCrap commonly sells in the £100 - £400 (ish) bracket.

Where it becomes interesting is when this stuff (still commonly regarded as old, cheap & throwaway junk by the people who find it in their lofts & garages) turns up at car boots, charity shops, on Gumtree etc for buttons, which allows 'orrible gyppos like me the opportunity to buy (for example) 2 old guitars for £35, run them under the tap & then collectively Ebay them for £320.

There aren't too many bargains on Ebay any more because it's overrun by the sort of people who will pay pretty decent money for JapCrap, and plenty of people with their grimy car boot Avon Les Pauls, insisting they're "Lawsuit Ibanez with a different name".

Fun & games. Wanna buy a Matsumoku L6S copy? :)

J.

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[quote name='Musicman69' post='785397' date='Mar 25 2010, 01:27 AM']Just wondering.. is any of this fine-crafted firewood worth anything? I know yis love it but any monetary value?[/quote]

As I've mentioned in another thread somewhere on here, a lot of the stuff is selling at the moment for silly high prices just because it was "Made in Japan" in the 70's. Not all Japanese built guitars were good quality, stuff like Jedson & Zenta guitars & basses which were so badly put together that they were unplayable are now starting to fetch up to £100 on eBay. My first guitar, a Jedson Tele shaped guitar, used to cut my hand on the bridge adjustment screws everytime I played it. You couldn't set the intonation & the action was horrendous, Avons were slightly better but as lads we all aspired to getting Antorias or Kimbaras with the hope that one day we'd have enough money to buy a Gibson or Fender. At least these days [u]most[/u] beginners guitars are at least playable. I remember buying a Kimbara strat brand new for £100 - you can get a decent guitar for that now too.

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[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='785437' date='Mar 25 2010, 06:39 AM']When I was a teenager I played bass. I had an Ibanez Artist bass. When I looked to see what one was worth, I only found one on sale, being sold by (as others describe him) "That German w***er" for £800! That doesn't set market value as that guy sells all sorts of stuff for unbelievably high prices. Or, "attempts to sell", I should say. However, I found a post where someone in the US had bought one for US$500 and considered that a notable bargain.[/quote]

I'm sure it was last year I first spotted that the German guy was trying to sell one of the Ibanez Artist Basses. Not quite the same model, [b]I think[/b] mine had four knobs.

He's still trying to sell it. At £865.

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1978-IBANEZ-ARTIST-BASS-made-in-JAPAN_W0QQitemZ120542534148QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item1c10e51a04"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1978-IBANEZ-ARTIST-B...=item1c10e51a04[/url]

Edit: Would these instruments have been made in the Fujigen factory?

Edited by Annoying Twit
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Yamaha BB1200. A quick google suggests that this is MIJ, while the BB1000 is made in Taiwan. But, a quick google does not always reveal the truth!

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Yamaha-BB1200-Bass-Guitar-left-handed_W0QQitemZ130377496266QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item1e5b1ab6ca"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Yamaha-BB120...=item1e5b1ab6ca[/url]

The same google shows that Hookys6stringbass, of this forum, seems to own three of them. I'm assuming that he can confirm!

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