Philosophical precision question

[HarryPotter]

Right been wondering about this, most people hold the precision style bass in very high esteem and I was wondering why this was. Could it be because:

a ) Leo hit the nail on the head first time and came up with a bass that could only be improved upon in minor ways if at all.

or

b ) It was used so prolifically in the pioneering days of modern music (50's, 60's & 70's) that you can't help but think that that's how bass is [i]supposed[/i] to sound.

What do you guys think?

Edited October 27, 2007 by HarryPotter

[NJW]

both of the above.

[thumbo]

I believe both statements to be true. I'm trying to think of other things that have been invented and not changed much at all because they were just great to begin with... having no luck...

Anyway, if it aint broke don't fix it.

[stewblack]

[quote name='thumbo' post='80251' date='Oct 27 2007, 10:13 PM']I'm trying to think of other things that have been invented and not changed much at all because they were just great to begin with... having no luck...[/quote]
Apart from the wheel, I know what you mean!

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='stewblack' post='80253' date='Oct 27 2007, 10:20 PM']Apart from the wheel, I know what you mean![/quote]

I'm pretty sure tyres weren't around in the stone age!
But quite a lot of musical instruments have remained the same since they were invented

[andy67]

deep thought enabled....I'll say Yamaha Attitude!

the fusion of pbass and pbass t style...got it right for me.

[acidbass]

It's just such a simple and great sounding bass - if you try and improve upon it, you just overcomplicate it and remove the very essence which makes it great - simplicity! Always one of my favourite basses.

[chris_b]

The Fender Precision bass was a revelation when it was first came out, and still is to some people. I love them as well, but most certainly the original design has been improved upon in many ways.

The replacement parts industry has improved on most of Leo's original ideas; eg pickups, electrics, bridges, tuners, strap locks, necks without dead spots, even paint jobs.

You can love your Fenders but, in my opinion Lakland, Shuker, Sadowsky, Alleva Coppolo and dozens of other companies consistently make far better Precision basses than Leo ever did.

[ARGH]

The only real beef I have with P's is they weigh a ton,and you have to modify them to get a better sound out of them...again personal taste,and yes they are ok..and JUST ok out of the box,and I would have one over a Jazz any day.

The balance is shot,they have dead spots,classic problems (sharp notes,flat notes) and you have real difficulty getting strings that go through the body that are long enough....


Compared to anything else..little was as good at the time..Gibson EB1?? ..Rickys in the 60s.... Hofners?

Even bigger hypothetical question would be that IF Leo came up with a Bass NOW (After his G&L ASAT..the best fretted 5 string Ive EVER played) would it be or have as much an impact in todays climate of overpriced custom made Instruments and cheap imported oriental tat?

[tauzero]

Well, he certainly made a good bass. It's become an icon because it's so recognisable and has spawned huge numbers of copies. The best way to improve it is to throw it away and start again - in a way, its very success has made it something of a dead end as Fender can't really move away from it and any better models they make simply won't penetrate the market.

Reproducing the Fender sound is easy anyway - get a modern active bass, leave the strings on for a couple of years, turn the treble right down, then stuff a pillow in front of the speaker. Instant Fender.

As a basic beginner bass, the Squier Precisions and Jazzes hold their own - perfectly good instruments at reasonable prices. I'm less convinced these days of the high-end Fenders (I speak as a former Precision owner who still has a soft spot for that particular instrument) - there are plenty of very good basses out there, and Fender seem to be the bass equivalent to Harley, trading a lot on a name as opposed to any discernable superiority of product.

[thumbo]

[quote name='chris_b' post='80291' date='Oct 28 2007, 01:47 AM']You can love your Fenders but, in my opinion Lakland, Shuker, Sadowsky, Alleva Coppolo and dozens of other companies consistently make far better Precision basses than Leo ever did.[/quote]

So what is the "definitive" precision bass? Fender P's (especially the older ones) have got this kind of charisma that no-one's come close to copying IMO.

[grosa]

I got given an early 70's p as a gift from my uncle just after a decided i wanted an electric,as i started on a diddy upright at age 7.
i didnt like p's then and i dont like them now.
not trying to rattle anyones cage,i just dont like them.i always prefered the jazz.

[ARGH]

[quote name='grosa' post='80303' date='Oct 28 2007, 04:16 AM']I got given an early 70's p as a gift from my uncle just after a decided i wanted an electric,as i started on a diddy upright at age 7.
i didnt like p's then and i dont like them now.
not trying to rattle anyones cage,i just dont like them.i always prefered the jazz.[/quote]


I agree theres 2 camps...you cant get the mwah richness from a P like you can In a Jazz and Fretless P's are just not as nice as the J's equivilent..BUT If you want sheer aggro and UGHHH (scientific terms here) P's win hands down.

[Dr.Dave]

There's another point.

I think it's wise to start out on a tried and tested instrument that's simple to use , has a classic sound , and is the choice of pro players worldwide in every style of music you can imagine to this day.

Then , as experience begins to develop , players may feel the need to refine their choice of instrument in terms of sound,facilities etc to better suit their style or the music they play.
At that point - some will find the P still can't be bettered , others will wonder how they ever got by with such a one trick pony.

As with much in life - if you want to bend or break the rules you can , by definition , only do that if you know them first.

[NancyJohnson]

Some years back I spoke with a guy called Mark Plunkett (no pun) who was the bass player for Little Angels (remember them?) - who had just had a #1 album 'Jam' - about the Fender Precision. I asked why it was that he was using a Fender Precision over the Spectors and other furniture that he had in backup. He simply answered that they don't go wrong and a million buyers couldn't all be wrong. That stayed with me.

A short time later I got my '79 in a trade deal and I've used it ever since. Aside from the original pickup failing a couple of years back and then one of the pots going, I've never done anything to it - it's a very reliable machine. Doesn't need adjusting or tweaking, it looks better the older it gets and it sounds just beautiful - I gigged with it Friday and two guys in the crowd remarked after how [i]clanky[/i] it sounded. I play it every day and have jammed/gigged with it maybe 500 times since I got it.

With this in mind the only thing it lacks is a low-B...hopefully a Lakland DJ5 will be mine in the new year and my Precision can go off and have a well-earned semi-retirement.

P

[The Burpster]

I firmly believe that the one thing that Leo got right was the scale length with the P. The std P neck diemensions (for me) are perfect but I understand others leaning toward a narrower faster neck.

Lots of that original design are now very much superceeded because of material technology, and electronics being smaller faster cleverer etc.

HOWEVER, none of this takes into account fashion and MOJO. SO the question I chuck into this smorgasbord is...

"Why, when there are so many [u]other[/u][b][/b] excellent basses available, is the P more popular than ever (with the exception of the EMO/Thrash/Death metal, scene) ?"


Just watch Mtv for an hour, and you will be hard pushed to see anything other than a Fender P or J...... We all on here have every make under the sun, but everybody has at least one or hankers after one of thier fave Fenders.....

Answer that question and you have answered the original question above....!

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='tauzero' post='80295' date='Oct 28 2007, 02:25 AM']Reproducing the Fender sound is easy anyway - get a modern active bass, leave the strings on for a couple of years, turn the treble right down, then stuff a pillow in front of the speaker. Instant Fender. [/quote]

You may think you're joking, but I actually do that (albeit without the pillow) - the only 4-string I play is pretty much dead and I've been told it "needs" new strings

[Beedster]

When I first started playing bass I associated the Precision with thumpy root notes and avoided it like the plague. I was a light gauge string & active circuitry kinda guy. Now my '73 Precision gets picked up more often that my Modulus. It's comparatively crude mechanically (in fact it's almost agricultural), has less tonal range, is harder to play and weighs a ton. It is however so much more satisfying to play, and although the Modulus can do so many things, the precision is so much better at the one or two things it does.
In response to a comment above, as far as I can remember form my music days, most musical instruments have evolved tremendously, and most in the modern orchestra are of a lineage that can be traced back to medieval or earlier times. As far as I know, pretty much the only instrument that was 'invented' as such was the saxophone. Instruments such as the violin and guitar can be traced back to earlier stringed instruments such as the viol whilst trumpets and trombones back to early horns. There are example of electric basses before the Precision, I think both Rick and Gibson made some, they just didn't work well and didn't get picked up in preference to uprights by the players of the time. I think, unlike his competitors, Leo did his homework, both in terms of technology and market research, and didn't go to market until he had it perfect.
Chris
PS he didn't actually get it perfect, perfection would have been adding a JPUP at the bridge

[andy67]

good post chris!

so you are a pbass deluxe man then?

[Beedster]

[quote name='andy67' post='80392' date='Oct 28 2007, 12:03 PM']good post chris!

so you are a pbass deluxe man then?[/quote]

No, I didn't like the deluxe at all. I have a beautiful old '73 which someone added a JPUP to in the 70's and it's pretty much everything I want from a bass (see [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4294)"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4294)[/url]. Funny thing about the Deluxe is that it was too light and too small for me (I had the version with the MM style humbucker at the bridge) and I didn't feel it had the necessary grunt. I don't like Fender's active circuitry either TBH.

I think my experiences with the Deluxe kind of reinforces the points a few have made above, that Leo did get it pretty close to right in '51 and again in '57 (it should of course be remembered that although people talk about the Precision as if it hasn't changed, it changed significantly in the 50's).

It's funny how I have heard and been told by so many guys who played Precisions in the '70s that they added a JPUP for a bit of extra snarl, yet it took me almost a year to find one. I'm guessing either that the basses in question didn't make it through the 80's or that the guys have stll got them and ain't selling!
Chris

[andy67]

one of my friends had a deluxe pbass or so it says! it has horrible tuning keys, soft neck, thin body and produces a less than satisfactory tone...The only other pbass delux I have seen was a buddy of mines, it was: 4 string, long scale maple neck, pbass body, fender lace sensor pups and a couple of tone switches....it played beautifully and sounded tremendous, the lace sensor bridge pup was some form of humbucker single jazz bridge pup style.

All in all fender have tried to second guess user trends, sometimes it has worked others...well we've all played the pigs!

andy

[Cantdosleepy]

That's a beautiful old bass, beedster. Nice one!

[SJA]

problems with the P bass for me are lack of a bridge pickup, only 20 frets (21 as on the stingray would be perfect) and the chunky neck joint impeding access up the top of the neck.
dead spots on the G are a bit of a pain too- but then they're a pain on nearly all wood-necked basses.

I've got a 1992 US Precision plus which is PJ and 22 frets, passive. it's got the tonal versatility and upper range, but the neck's a bit thin and flimsy.


and I put together a P from warmoth parts (in my avatar)- 21 frets, passive, p and double J humbucker- dead spots are less of a problem on this with the steel-reinforced warmoth neck, but there's still the block of the neck joint. I should have gone for the angled neck joint option, maybe used ferrules-bolts-inserts instead of the neck plate + screws. I could always mod it though.

I understand they've trimmed the neck joint slightly on the US P and J deluxes.

Edited October 29, 2007 by SJA

[Shaggy]

[quote name='Beedster' post='80371' date='Oct 28 2007, 11:12 AM']When I first started playing bass I associated the Precision with thumpy root notes and avoided it like the plague. I was a light gauge string & active circuitry kinda guy. Now my '73 Precision gets picked up more often that my Modulus. It's comparatively crude mechanically (in fact it's almost agricultural), has less tonal range, is harder to play and weighs a ton. It is however so much more satisfying to play, and although the Modulus can do so many things, the precision is so much better at the one or two things it does.
In response to a comment above, as far as I can remember form my music days, most musical instruments have evolved tremendously, and most in the modern orchestra are of a lineage that can be traced back to medieval or earlier times. As far as I know, pretty much the only instrument that was 'invented' as such was the saxophone. Instruments such as the violin and guitar can be traced back to earlier stringed instruments such as the viol whilst trumpets and trombones back to early horns. There are example of electric basses before the Precision, I think both Rick and Gibson made some, they just didn't work well and didn't get picked up in preference to uprights by the players of the time. I think, unlike his competitors, Leo did his homework, both in terms of technology and market research, and didn't go to market until he had it perfect.
Chris
PS he didn't actually get it perfect, perfection would have been adding a JPUP at the bridge [/quote]
+1 completely
It took me thirty years to get the point of the Fender P. Like Chris, I’d always considered them strictly a one-trick pony – thuddy, old-school, blues-rock. Especially as a mainly fretless player, you really need that bridge pick-up to add a bit of bite to your “mwah” - at least as an option - but I’ve never liked fretless Jazzes that much.
Anyway, last winter I joined a ‘60’s rock/R&B band as a side-project to the main covers band, and fancied a “retro” bass purely – I’m ashamed to say – for image. As the two guitarists have red Strats I was kind of looking for a red MIJ P-bass, briefly considered the Sting signature, then saw Walbassists’ ’73 sunburst P-bass on Basschat this summer. Heavily modded – converted to fretless with ebony board, narrowed neck, added J p/u at the bridge, re-wired with SD vintage/antiquity II replacement p/u’s. Ruined as a vintage bass of course, but it could have been custom built for me.
Well, plugged through a Trace valve head it was the tone I’d been looking for all my life, and with the neck mods and pro setup played like a dream. Yes, my active MM Sabre does a pretty good imitation of a P on neck p/u, but no bass I’ve tried gives that plummy, harmonic-rich, sock-in-the-gut sound of a P-bass. The addition of a J bridge pick-up is a revelation, makes it so much more versatile, and whilst string choice and a good set-up is crucial for any bass, for a P-bass I’d say it’s critical. And if it’s good enough for Pino, it’s good enough for me!

[chris_b]

[quote name='HarryPotter' post='80240' date='Oct 27 2007, 08:36 PM']a ) Leo hit the nail on the head first time and came up with a bass that could only be improved upon in minor ways if at all.
b ) It was used so prolifically in the pioneering days of modern music (50's, 60's & 70's) that you can't help but think that that's how bass is [i]supposed[/i] to sound.[/quote]
For all the people who agreed with a). No, Leo made a good bass, but didn't get it right first time because he quickly made significant changes to the first Precision. He came up with practically a new bass by changing the pickup, body shape and bridge. Fender, then CBS, have changed everything else several times over the years so don't think that point a) is anywhere near accurate.

I think that since the 70's the Jazz has been recorded more than the Precision, so the Jazz is probably the sound of choice to most people these days.