Philosophical precision question

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='andy67' post='83298' date='Nov 3 2007, 08:54 PM']A recording studio is not the place to be creative nor experimental, time is money! all your hard work as a band should be done and completed in the practice room and finalised in the studio![/quote]

Unless you are The Beatles making Sgt Peppers or The Beach Boys doing Pet Sounds.

[ARGH]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='83484' date='Nov 4 2007, 01:00 PM']Unless you are The Beatles making Sgt Peppers or The Beach Boys doing Pet Sounds.[/quote]

And your record company has a buttload of cash...i.e someone else,with a blank chequebook is paying. that sort of 60s/70s carteblanche dosent seem to happen anymore,which is a shame.

Edited November 4, 2007 by ARGH

[chris_b]

[quote name='ARGH' post='83495' date='Nov 4 2007, 01:29 PM']And your record company has a buttload of cash...i.e someone else,with a blank chequebook is paying. that sort of 60s/70s carteblanche dosent seem to happen anymore,which is a shame.[/quote]
Unfortunately, even in the "old days" the record and management companies etc, never dipped into their own pockets. The Artist/band always got the bill in the end.

[andy67]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='83484' date='Nov 4 2007, 01:00 PM']Unless you are The Beatles making Sgt Peppers or The Beach Boys doing Pet Sounds.[/quote]

too many bands made very little money in that particular era for that very reason............Rolling Stones ripped off by studios and agents alike!!

Edited November 4, 2007 by andy67

[thumb4bob]

well im a philosophy student so I saw this topic and had to post something But Im not sure Descartes or Rousseau had an opinion on P bass basses. Sooooooo i think it depends wheather your defining the P bass as THE electric bass (because it was the first) or as the electric fender P bass. As the first ever mass produced electric bass guitar it has been vastly improved on in my opinion, but then if it hadn't in over 50 years it would be a sad state of affairs. I don't personally think these high end companies make a better P than if you bought an old school fender model simply because nothing can be a better P bass than a P bass. If you make it sound "better" (cleaner, more modern) than you don't have a fender P bass you have something else. All these companies really do is make modern instruments in the shape of the P and Jazz because people are still atracted to those shapes but want a modern tone. Having said that I can understand people wanting the fender shapes especially people older than me simply becuse there was a good bet most of your favourate bassists played one. If some watches all there heroes playing these instruments it goes into their subconscious and when it becomes time for them to pick up an istrument and they want to play like jaco, obvious mental link buy a fender jazz! I would bet money on this happening less and less as the generations go by and fender has more and more competition in the market. Phew

[andy67]

see what you are saying and some very good points but, dont think the pbass has been 'vastly improved' I think perhaps the fact production values have changed allowing for operational refinement and enhancements has simply allowed the pbass to grow by natural progression/occurence and or evolve!

The Yamaha Attitude for me, has taken the two pbass styles, fused them, refinded not redesigned the body shape, placed pups of an individual prefernce (I have always liked dimarzio pups since my very first ibanez blazer) and created a modern version of a classic but in keeping with the classic! I really cant see past my two for functionality and tonality - but I'm not a fan of jaco!

Edited November 4, 2007 by andy67

[MB1]

MB1.

Whenever anyone mentions Fender Precision I immediately think of the "live and dangerous" cover.

[HarryPotter]

[quote name='thumb4bob' post='83583' date='Nov 4 2007, 05:06 PM']well im a philosophy student so I saw this topic and had to post something But Im not sure Descartes or Rousseau had an opinion on P bass basses. Sooooooo i think it depends wheather your defining the P bass as THE electric bass (because it was the first) or as the electric fender P bass. As the first ever mass produced electric bass guitar it has been vastly improved on in my opinion, but then if it hadn't in over 50 years it would be a sad state of affairs. I don't personally think these high end companies make a better P than if you bought an old school fender model simply because nothing can be a better P bass than a P bass. If you make it sound "better" (cleaner, more modern) than you don't have a fender P bass you have something else. All these companies really do is make modern instruments in the shape of the P and Jazz because people are still atracted to those shapes but want a modern tone. Having said that I can understand people wanting the fender shapes especially people older than me simply becuse there was a good bet most of your favourate bassists played one. If some watches all there heroes playing these instruments it goes into their subconscious and when it becomes time for them to pick up an istrument and they want to play like jaco, obvious mental link buy a fender jazz! I would bet money on this happening less and less as the generations go by and fender has more and more competition in the market. Phew [/quote]

There is merit in what you say, but as we get older we will also have an epiphany moment where we come to realise that we don't need 12 string basses with supercomuter standard effects.

We simply need a simple honest tone, and then once you have seen the light, you reach for one of Leo's finest.

It has happened to me, it's finally happening to my brother (what a relief) - He now plays an '84 Tokai Strat through an Orange valve amp, you don't need more.

[MB1]

[quote name='HarryPotter' post='83599' date='Nov 4 2007, 05:38 PM']There is merit in what you say, but as we get older we will also have an epiphany moment where we come to realise that we don't need 12 string basses with supercomuter standard effects.

We simply need a simple honest tone, and then once you have seen the light, you reach for one of Leo's finest.

It has happened to me, it's finally happening to my brother (what a relief) - He now plays an '84 Tokai Strat through an Orange valve amp, you don't need more.[/quote]

MB1.
+1

By jove! Harry gets my vote! Why would anybody want to play a Trouser Press?

[Alun]

Interesting thread

I must be honest and say I don't own a P Bass of any description, but I do love the sound of them. That P-Bass and pick tone is perfect for rock, punk, etc and sounds great to this day. Not doing much in those genres, I tend to bluff it with the front p/up of my Jazz and a pick but it's not really the same.

The recording debate is really interesting. In these days of home studios and VST plug ins, I agree that the art of miking and EQing has been somewhat lost ( I have also happily sat there with a razor blade and tape splicing and editting - great fun!) but I don't think all the responsibility lies with the engineer. The player should also have his sound and gear together, and know it well enough to make quick changes if required. I've been lucky to generally work with open minded engineers and have got good results with active six strings as well as with passive fours.

The "sitting in the mix" dilemma often comes from, in my experience and opinion, players who set their tone to sound good soloed - a very hi fi sound with frequencies galore and active EQs do encourage this practice. People forget that even one extra insturment in the mix will change the perceived bass sound as they fight for room. Even just a drum track can soon gobble up that deep bass/lower mids (kick drum and toms) and high end ( snare and cymbals) leaving the bass with nowhere to poke through. Rock and metal guitarists with scooped mids will also soon kill off a decent bass sound, I've usually ended up using a disgustingly middley tone on those kind of recordings that sounds great in the mix but vile in isolation.

Same with some effects, sound great isolated but are oftem lost in the mix. I used a POG on a recent recording to give an 8 string type sound with a pick and the resulting tone cut through beautifully, but you can't really hear the upper octave that often,

Although I use my active Cort for recordings, I tend to leave the EQ flat and just add a little compression if need be - generally sits fine. Saying that, my favourite recording bass at the moment is a cheap Alden violin bass copy with flatwounds. There's something about short scale semi acoustics that just stays out of the way of everything else.

Cheers,
Alun

[HarryPotter]

[quote name='MB1' post='83605' date='Nov 4 2007, 05:43 PM']MB1.
+1

By jove! Harry gets my vote! Why would anybody want to play a Trouser Press? [/quote]

I now have a vision of Alan Partridge phoning a help desk because he has just taken his 12 string bass apart out of 'boredom'.

[andy67]

[quote name='HarryPotter' post='83599' date='Nov 4 2007, 05:38 PM']There is merit in what you say, but as we get older we will also have an epiphany moment where we come to realise that we don't need 12 string basses with supercomuter standard effects.

We simply need a simple honest tone, and then once you have seen the light, you reach for one of Leo's finest.

It has happened to me, it's finally happening to my brother (what a relief) - He now plays an '84 Tokai Strat through an Orange valve amp, you don't need more.[/quote]


had that moment 5/6 years ago! now only play passive 4 string basses!

I have never taken my rig to a recording studio as any good quality bass should be able to get tone when inputed directly into a desk other than that, I completely believe that the tone is in your hands not from the instrument!

Edited November 4, 2007 by andy67

[3V17C]

[quote name='andy67' post='83666' date='Nov 4 2007, 07:48 PM']had that moment 5/6 years ago! now only play passive 4 string basses![/quote]

SNAP!


c

[BigRedX]

[quote name='HarryPotter' post='83599' date='Nov 4 2007, 05:38 PM']There is merit in what you say, but as we get older we will also have an epiphany moment where we come to realise that we don't need 12 string basses with supercomuter standard effects.

We simply need a simple honest tone, and then once you have seen the light, you reach for one of Leo's finest.

It has happened to me, it's finally happening to my brother (what a relief) - He now plays an '84 Tokai Strat through an Orange valve amp, you don't need more.[/quote]

No, what you have discovered is that for the music you play with the musicians you play it with your Fender's "honest tone" is the one that works best. If you were playing different music with different musicians you may well have completely different requirements of your instrument and amplification, and ones that might not be met by the Fender P. This is why good bass players ultimately make good producers too. It's the ability to listen to all the music and pick the right notes, rhythm and sound. Sometimes it's a traditional one and sometimes it's not. Neither is right, it's just right for the overall sound which depends on what the other musicians do.

[HarryPotter]

Not quite. What I want to hear myself playing is Fenders honest tone, that's what makes me happy.

Because that's me and that's what I am.

If I play with a group of musicians it's likely that my tone will fit in with theirs (i.e. simple and honest) because birds of a feather et al.

I doubt I will ever want a Gilmour sized effects rack.

For the same reasons I doubt I will ever play jazz style music, because it isn't me.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='thumb4bob' post='83583' date='Nov 4 2007, 05:06 PM']well im a philosophy student so I saw this topic and had to post something But Im not sure Descartes or Rousseau had an opinion on P bass basses. Sooooooo i think it depends wheather your defining the P bass as THE electric bass (because it was the first) or as the electric fender P bass. As the first ever mass produced electric bass guitar it has been vastly improved on in my opinion, but then if it hadn't in over 50 years it would be a sad state of affairs. I don't personally think these high end companies make a better P than if you bought an old school fender model simply because nothing can be a better P bass than a P bass. If you make it sound "better" (cleaner, more modern) than you don't have a fender P bass you have something else. All these companies really do is make modern instruments in the shape of the P and Jazz because people are still atracted to those shapes but want a modern tone. Having said that I can understand people wanting the fender shapes especially people older than me simply becuse there was a good bet most of your favourate bassists played one. If some watches all there heroes playing these instruments it goes into their subconscious and when it becomes time for them to pick up an istrument and they want to play like jaco, obvious mental link buy a fender jazz! I would bet money on this happening less and less as the generations go by and fender has more and more competition in the market. Phew [/quote]

Another Philosopher, eh?!

I few selected (mis-) quotes and thoughts. Some more serious than others...

If I were to get all Platonic, I'd suggest that, as the form of the bass guitar supercedes all earthly manifestations of the form, that the producers who want a certain bass should try to obtain that one. Except for the fact that, according to Plato, they can't.

Willard Van Orman Quine wrote a superb essay on the indeterminacy of tone.

"When you look into your cabinet port, your cabinet port looks into you" (Nietzsche)

Finally, this old chestnut;

If a tree falls in a forest with no-one to hear it, does it make a sound?
Who cares?!;

What species of tree was it?
Is it spalted?
Does it have a good "Tap Tone"?

These are the relevant issues!

[andy67]

[u][b]47![/b][/u]

[martthebass]

No....42!

[andy67]

I always get that wrong!!

its my inner child state................................cosmically speaking!

[Beedster]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='83868' date='Nov 5 2007, 09:42 AM']Another Philosopher, eh?!

I few selected (mis-) quotes and thoughts. Some more serious than others...

If I were to get all Platonic, I'd suggest that, as the form of the bass guitar supercedes all earthly manifestations of the form, that the producers who want a certain bass should try to obtain that one. Except for the fact that, according to Plato, they can't.

Willard Van Orman Quine wrote a superb essay on the indeterminacy of tone.

"When you look into your cabinet port, your cabinet port looks into you" (Nietzsche)

Finally, this old chestnut;

If a tree falls in a forest with no-one to hear it, does it make a sound?
Who cares?!;

What species of tree was it?
Is it spalted?
Does it have a good "Tap Tone"?

These are the relevant issues![/quote]

"The proper method of philosophy consists in clearly conceiving the insoluble problems in all their insolubility and then in simply contemplating them, fixedly and tirelessly, year after year, without any hope, patiently waiting" (Weil).

The answer to the Precision enigma will likely elude us, but a great thread anyway guys

Chris

[Rich]

Or to paraphrase slightly:
"The proper method of philosophy consists in clearly conceiving the insoluble problems in all their insolubility and then in simply contemplating them, fixedly and tirelessly, year after year, without any hope, patiently waiting for the Royal Mail to admit liability and finally pay up for the bass they managed to wreck."

[andy67]

the king is dead - long live the king!

[paul, the]

I was plucking away at Floyd's "Money" last night. Before that I had my usual Motown funtime.

It wouldn't have sounded 'right' on any other bass IMO.

[andy67]

I'm a bit of a fan of motown myself - not a huge fan...however, taking into consideration the equipment they were using, the sound was superb, bass players were just astounding and for me, held it all together so well...but modern technology has advanced so much, in terms of musical equipment, that everything is so much better now?? leads me back to an earlier point about the tone being in you and more specifically your hands!


as a famous man once said "feel the force youg jedi...it is within us all"