Do Basses get better when they get older?

[Timface]

IS this true, as basses age do they sound/play better? or is it down to preference

I've only had my ric for a year and the first 2 months I wasnt sure at all... but now It plays amazingly, But I recon that down to settling to it

Timface

[paul, the]

[quote name='Timface' post='6786' date='May 25 2007, 08:18 PM']IS this true, as basses age do they sound/play better? or is it down to preference

I've only had my ric for a year and the first 2 months I wasnt sure at all... but now It plays amazingly, But I recon that down to settling to it

Timface[/quote]

It's all about the mystical deities that worked in the Fender factory in the '50s, 60s and '70s.
(another vintage thread here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=748&hl=)"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=748&hl=)[/url]

You've probably become accustomed to its unique tone. You've probably worn in the strings a little to your preference. You've probably set the tone knobs just right. You've probably got used to the fact that the bass is yours. You own it, you!.. Give it a hug.

[Machines]

Hmm I do believe a neck can feel better when its played in, but sound better ? Hmm...

[Alpha-Dave]

No

[Timface]

thats a pretty straight answer.... well I think that basses probabily dont get better but I DO think that the older and more played a bass is the more natural and comfortable the action of the playing become....
I guess its How you feel in the end!

Timface

[Kiwi]

To be honest, I don't know that age is the factor per se. But there's definitely a difference between a heavily gigged bass and a new bass in terms of feel. I like heavily gigged basses because they feel more broken in and supple. Having said that, there are some manufacturers who do a pretty good job of getting a broken in feel on new basses, Ken Smith and Celinder to name but two.

[Breakfast]

It's certainly a factor with acoustic instruments, which sort of grow into themselves over time- hence the finest classical instruments mostly being antiques.

Whether electric instruments do the same or they just get a bit rusty and the electrics go skronky is a slightly different question I guess.

[Kiwi]

Well, I'm just looking at my smacked up pre EB Stingray and comparing it favourably to my Smiths and Celinder, thats all. There have been some gorgeously muntered 70's and early 80's P-basses I've played as well. They've got fag burns between the tuners, stickers on the body and rusted pickups and bridge parts. Plugged in they sound like they've spent 20 years inside and have been on a regular course of steroids.

A reckon a bit of moderate abuse over a long period of time mellows an instrument out.

[Russ]

I'd say yes, if only because of the instrument getting worn in through playing. The woods in the neck often settle as well, making for a more stable neck, and often subtly altering the overall "feel" of the instrument.

[Timface]

intresting.... Does this explain party why really old basses are worth loads of cash? apart from them being orinigals or "special" coz that kinda different

[ped]

Ditto the 'played in' feeling - some old basses just feel so right. When you have had one for a while it feels like part of you! I enjoy the vibe of a brand new instrument, too.

[neepheid]

Hmph, I wish my car improved with age, and gained value with every bash that dishonest chumps see fit to inflict upon it then run away.

[AFKT]

I think vintage basses are like vintage cars (or anything else vintage), they are not necessarily as "good" performance, feature and comfort wise as new ones but they carry some sort appeal, probably because there aren't very many left and - "they don't make them anymore!!!!." This gives them a unique appeal - no one else can have one quite the same. As for the price, thats just demand far outstripping supply, nothing to do with quality (not to say it isn't there, just that somethings only worth what someone will pay for it)

Bit of vague ramble, s'all good

JP.

[Timface]

isnt that funny.. I think we all wished that

[Alpha-Dave]

Although I stick by my earlier short reply, there are a few changes that happen to an instrument over time.

Cosmetic: scratches/colour fading these are purely surface and affect the tone in no way.
Fret wear: can affect intonation and string buzzing, neither are probably good things.
Neck wear: a gloss neck will initially become more polished as the coating is worn (your hand is smoother and softer than a buffing wheel), then at the extreme it wears through and roughens again to the texture of wood. Assuming we're talking about old Fenders or other basses that have maple necks they are sealed with a lacquer that will eventually wear through, and then hand grease/sweat will allow a green fungus stain to take on in the wood. I don’t see this as a nice thing, personally.

Most important:
Pick-up demagnetisation: as the years go by the magnets will slowly become less aligned (polar), so less sensitive. I'm not sure how this would affect the tone. IIRC I've heard a guitarist saying (about an old strat) that it gave a 'mellower' sound, but to me I can only think that the signal output would be reduced, so you'd have to turn the volume up more and so have more electrical noise.


Perhaps the neck is finally settled down, so the truss rod and strings are in perfect balance, but this should be achieved with a good set up anyway.

I think the biggest thing is familiarity: it's no different to getting a new car; It's a lot to concentrate on the first day, less so a week later, the after a couple of months you wonder why you ever drove the previous bucket of bolts.

So as I said before:

No

[Toasted]

In short: yes.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Timface' post='6854' date='May 25 2007, 02:12 PM']intresting.... Does this explain party why really old basses are worth loads of cash? apart from them being orinigals or "special" coz that kinda different[/quote]
Very few basses from the '60's & '70's are worth much with the glorious exception of Fender and a few others. I'm of the opinion that even the really expensive ones are only worth a few hundred if judged solely on tone and playability. People talk about the magic of the aged woods but if you take a '64 jazz bass, refret it, change electronics and sand the Fender decal off the value of that aged wood plummets even though it is unchanged in tone and playability. Draw your own conclusions

I understand the fun & nostalgia of old basses and see why that can skyrocket a price but I don't understand what seems to be a need to then rationalize the high price by claiming the tone or playability is superior to a newer bass made to higher standards.

That said when I see a pre CBS J bass in a custom color and matching headstock I do tend to drool. But it's more about my history and taste than superior quality.

[paul, the]

[quote name='Timface' post='6854' date='May 25 2007, 10:12 PM']intresting.... Does this explain party why really old basses are worth loads of cash? apart from them being orinigals or "special" coz that kinda different[/quote]

Demand is positively correlated with scarcity of resources. Pre-CBS fenders are renowned for their superior production and quality of build (and thus, sounding better). Over time, with people hanging on to these basses and not parting with them for limbs as well as breakages and parts having to be replaced - an all original vintage Fender is becoming more and more of a rarity and thus, going up and up in market value.

Post-CBS basses made in the seventies also have a certain kind of individualism and are owed a lot by their era and emotionally charged place in prolific '70s music history. These, too, are a good £1500 investment if you like the tone and can't afford the six grand price tag on a '60s instrument.

So why don't Fender still make to quality instruments(?) I hear you ask - Well I'm not sure. I am, however, sure it's not simply just down to bad principles. The simplest fact is that Fender have a longer established reputation than anyone for electric instruments. They are renowned for being studio ready and highly endorsed. This amalgamation of product history and endorsement equals the Fender brand. Having the esteemed Fender brand name on their instruments means that they have the kind of market elasticity available to them that they can sell basses made all over the world with satisfactory qualit control and still have a consistent high demand.

I personally think that this is good short-term business sense and it would not be economical for fender to increase quality control. However, in the long-term, Fender will lose respect and brand loyalty unless they come up with some decent extension strategies or quickly change their ethos.

One thing, that is quite specialised to music, is the fact that they can stick on a Hendrix, Floyd, Jamerson track and say "That was played on a Fender." You can't really take that away from them.

Still, there's nothing like holding an American made Fender. You instantly become a part of music history... you feel it in your bones.

Edited May 26, 2007 by paul, the

[bassbloke]

the concept of 'Sounding Better' is subjective and relative.

My drummer mate did a session for Dizzee Rascal on '...later with Jools Holland' the other week. The bassist for the session had a very nice Ken Smith. Basschat members have all commented on the bass and how good it sounded. Nick Cave's band Grinderman were also playing, and their bassist had a beat up old Precision. My friend says that Dizzee's bass player went straight over to said Precision and was mavelling over it. Based purely on the actual market rate for the instrument itself witout the vintage element factored in, the Ken Smith is maybe 3 or 4 times more expensive and the product of many more hours labour.

Yet, given a boutique neck through active five string and a beat up old Precision (unsure of Vintage), the precision wins- on this occasion.

'Tis a strange world

[BOD2]

Interestingly enough, Yamaha are now selling electric guitars with what they call "Initial Response Acceleration Technology". Essentially, after the guitar is fully assembled and ready to play they put it in a vibration rig and determine the resonant frequency of the guitar as a whole. Once this has been identified the guitar is vibrated at that resonant frequency for 15 minutes.

This is something they developed originally for their high-end acoustic violins and have only recently applied to electric instruments. The theory is that this process replicates what happens in real life to the instrument over a much longer period, as the instrument is played. The end result is said to be better, longer and smoother sustain, and a more linear response.

Could this be what makes and older, aged instrument sound better ?

Or is it just smoke and mirrors ?

[ped]

Thats very interesting!!

[Veils]

I often wonder whether things like that are just gimmicks or whether it's actually the real deal.

I think if you use an instrument over a decent period of time, the natural way you play will cause some wear and starts to feel more natural. I reckon if you were to pick up someone elses bass that they had used for years it probably wouldn't feel the same. It's kinda like when you put someone elses shoes on, they don't feel right because they have been worn in specific to the owner.

[BOD2]

[quote name='presoulnation' post='7085' date='May 26 2007, 12:19 PM']I often wonder whether things like that are just gimmicks or whether it's actually the real deal.[/quote]

That's a good question.

A couple of things come to mind, though.

1. As companies go, Yamaha seem fairly "honest" and genuinely into innovation and development.

2. This idea was started on high end acoustic violins, not guitars. I woudn't have thought professional violinists would be that bothered by a gimmick like that, if there wasn't some substance to it.

Maybe this is one worth watching out for.

[nig]

Let me ask a question, are stable tonewoods as easy to find these days...no. has the use of active eq overshadowed a well balances passive instrument...possibly, are pacific rim licenced instruments as good as luthier finished craftsman built instruments, yes ...until they warp or fall apart,or the frets that were machine pressed in start to lift, an old instrument if well looked after and correctly used will have stabalised over the years and as for the weakening of pickups magnets, this is often somthing that enhances the sound, I have both older basses and newer ones, the oldies are the best for me, I was a music shop manager in the mid 80's and saw alot of poor instruments which are now termed as classic or vintage, but as the old saying goes, you cant polish a turd, so its yes and no, use your discretion.

[DirkThrust]

Some people believe that the crystalline structure of the material that the magnetic pickup pole pieces are made of alters over time, and this produces a subtle change in the sound which is impossible to replicate in any other way. Whether the sound it produces is better or just different is down to personal taste I suppose.

As for being played in, this may be true up to a point. All the rough edges caused by the manufacturing process will smooth out after a certain amount of playing, but Eric Clapton put his beloved Blackie up for auction only after it became so "played in" that it was virtually unplayable.

I would love an old Fender. Not because I think it will do anything better than my new one, but they just have the character that only age can reproduce. As someone else stated, pick virtually any great recording from the past and the chances are it'll have a Fender on it. That link back to the roots of Rock n Roll keeps Fenders in particular in demand, and demand is always gonna outstrip supply.