Schroeder 1210 + ????

[dave_bass5]

Im a bit late to this thread but i have to agree with the others.
I love my 1210R and MB heads. I got the SA450 because of the extra mid range control. I was finding the 1210R a bit peaky in the mids so wanted to tame them. The SA450 does this well but after doing close on 60 gigs with this set up i was finding i was running the EQ almost flat and just using the filters.
Ive now switched to a LMII with this cab and it still fills rooms. This is the only rig i have had complaints about, both from my guitarist for not being able to hear himself over the other side of the stage and from venue's saying the low end is too loud at the back of the room.
There seems to be a lot of people who say the MB heads go well with a lot of cabs and i must admit i find that true in my limited experience with different cabs.
Of course it all depends if you like the tone of the heads i guess.

As any 1210 (or even 1212) owner will tell you these things really open up at gigs. Im not a great lover of the close up, on stage sound but out front my rig fill the bottom end of the mix and at the same time sits nicely in it.
When i first got mine i intended to also get a cheap power amp to take advantage of the high power handling of the cab but to be honest ive never come close to max on my MB heads (but ive not played huge venue's without PA support). Ive played to 300-400 people with this set up and while i didnt need to fill the room i was still loud enough to be heard across the dance floor. And that was without PA support as we only use a Vocal PA most fo the time.
It might also be worth emailing Jorg direct. He offered me a good deal a few months ago. Hes good to deal with and will help you out if he can.

Edited October 31, 2007 by dave_bass5

[OldGit]

I use a Markbass LMK (two channels 300 watts at 8 ohms, 500 watts at 4 ohms) + Schroeder 1212L, 4ohms.

I've had some experience carrying the 1210R as well as my 1212L and the Light is certainly the way to go.
I can realistically carry a bass in a hiscox on a strap, amp head in a Maplins ali case in one hand and the Schroeder in the other hand for single trip in and out to the car.
You can't do that with the 1210R.


I'd snap up that 1210L on eBay if it and my cab were both 8 oms to make a nice stack.
It's a 4 ohm cab that means you can get a lot more watts out of the heads you are considering but can't add another cab unless you run a power amp that can runt at 2 ohms.
You could have 2000 watts of speaker then

The MB LMK has two separate channels so you could switch between the two to manage your basses' differing characteristics without changing your input chain.
I use them for vastly different eq settings with one bass. With a foot switch you can have A, B or A+B for more fun..

"The only thing that I'm confused about is power ratings as I've no idea how to match a head to a cab power wise. My understanding is that you'd want a head with a similar power rating, perhaps even slightly more to have the option of overdriving? Or should it be the opposite and have slightly less to avoid any damage to the cab? "

Rule of thumb is to have twice as much wattage in your speakers than your head. I think these rules don't apply to some of the top end cabs though.

Edited October 31, 2007 by OldGit

[dave_bass5]

Oh yeah, totally agree no the weight of the 1210R. Its bloody heavy. Even my UL212 i can lift with one hand (just) and its almost twice the size of the 1210R. Saying that i do like the fact that it feels really solid and i know it wont move around like my UL115 does.

Edited October 31, 2007 by dave_bass5

[Dragonlord]

[quote name='carlosfandango' post='81066' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:30 AM']I read somewhere that Jorg himself prefer Aguilar DB750’s with his cabs……so much gear, so little time (and dosh)[/quote]
Yeah, the DB750 is one of his all-time favourite amps, but the last time I talked to him he was playing more with a Demeter pre and a QSC (i think) power amp.

[mcgraham]

Thanks for that rule of thumb OldGit, that is exceedingly useful to know!

When I was depping, we used a studio in london and I helped with the gear, I agree that the 1210R isn't light, but I myself can manage it with one hand. Not saying I'd walk miles with it with any decent degree of comfort, but that's why I'd want to order one with a telescopic wheel dolly; I don't drive so any amp over any appreciable distance wouldn't be fun to carry.

Hmmm, so many amps! There was a MB LM II for sale earlier in the summer on here for just 250 quid, I nearly nabbed it but had no cab for it to go with. And still won't for a while...

Slightly offtopic but I'm verrry likely going to get a set of Ultra Jazz's for my Smith soon, just to give it a bit more natural strength in the mix, should go great with the Schroeder as the Model J's I have in my Geddy get a phenomenal sound from them. I'll let you all know how that turns out.

Mark

P.S. If anyone is looking to move a Markbass head on, please, drop me a line

[OldGit]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='81727' date='Oct 31 2007, 01:37 PM']Thanks for that rule of thumb OldGit, that is exceedingly useful to know!

When I was depping, we used a studio in london and I helped with the gear, I agree that the 1210R isn't light, but I myself can manage it with one hand. Not saying I'd walk miles with it with any decent degree of comfort, but that's why I'd want to order one with a telescopic wheel dolly; I don't drive so any amp over any appreciable distance wouldn't be fun to carry.[/quote]

You are welcome.

If the Schroder wheely trolly things are anything like the same thing I had on my Peavey BAM they are a waste of space. The wheels arent big enough to roll well on anything but the smoothest dance floor so you'll end up carrying it anyway ....

[mcgraham]

Reeeeally.... hmm, that's a valid concern you raise there.

I guess that kind of opens it up to wondering whether it's worth shelling out for the light version, or even if it's worth getting the 1212L, as keeping costs low and going with what I know was why I was opting for the 1210R. Shaun at SHX music said that he prefers the 1210R as it gets a bit more oomph and works very well with rock, but reckons if I'm a 5 or 6 string player I'd perhaps prefer the lights.

It seems a lot of you started with 1210's and moved up to 1212's, was that just the 'more power!' thing or was there a genuine bonus to them that you found?

Mark

P.S. Discussing this is making me go crazy! I want a Schroeder now!

P.P.S. ... and perhaps some means of amplification so that it's not just an expensive furry table sitting in my apartment.

[RichBowman]

Speaking personally, I was originally after the 1210L to replace my 1210R (I originally sold the 1210R to try out some EA Cabs - a CXL110 and a CXL112 pair) - but Shaun only had the 1212L in stock, and I thought well b*gger it, that'll do me. I wasn't really fussed as I'd heard that they all had similar sounds, give or take, so I wasn't worried about buying blind. I think the 1212L is a little 'flatter' in response than the 1210, with a bit more upper mid that I always thought was laking in the 1210. However, there have been several iterations of the crossover being used, and I could tell the difference between the original 1212L and the replacement 1212L (paragraph below...)

Shaun was great when my original 1212L developed a fault, ordered a new one in direct from Jorg, and came up to Cambridge to swap it over. It took a little while, but thatw as understandable being a) Christmas time and having the new cab shipped over from Jorg. It wasn't a disastrous fault, and Shaun kept me up to date with everything the whole time - so your money's safe with him!

As or weight - Yup, I walk from the car with bass on my back, iAmp in one hand, Cab in the other. It's bliss.

Rich


[quote name='mcgraham' post='81786' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:05 PM']Reeeeally.... hmm, that's a valid concern you raise there.

I guess that kind of opens it up to wondering whether it's worth shelling out for the light version, or even if it's worth getting the 1212L, as keeping costs low and going with what I know was why I was opting for the 1210R. Shaun at SHX music said that he prefers the 1210R as it gets a bit more oomph and works very well with rock, but reckons if I'm a 5 or 6 string player I'd perhaps prefer the lights.

It seems a lot of you started with 1210's and moved up to 1212's, was that just the 'more power!' thing or was there a genuine bonus to them that you found?

Mark

P.S. Discussing this is making me go crazy! I want a Schroeder now!

P.P.S. ... and perhaps some means of amplification so that it's not just an expensive furry table sitting in my apartment.[/quote]

[OldGit]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='81786' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:05 PM']Reeeeally.... hmm, that's a valid concern you raise there.

I guess that kind of opens it up to wondering whether it's worth shelling out for the light version, or even if it's worth getting the 1212L, as keeping costs low and going with what I know was why I was opting for the 1210R. Shaun at SHX music said that he prefers the 1210R as it gets a bit more oomph and works very well with rock, but reckons if I'm a 5 or 6 string player I'd perhaps prefer the lights.

It seems a lot of you started with 1210's and moved up to 1212's, was that just the 'more power!' thing or was there a genuine bonus to them that you found?

Mark

P.S. Discussing this is making me go crazy! I want a Schroeder now!

P.P.S. ... and perhaps some means of amplification so that it's not just an expensive furry table sitting in my apartment.[/quote]

Best to try one first though .. the "exposure" of being heard easily by everyone in the room takes a bit of getting used to ... What were once "intentional jazz notes" partially obscured in teh noise soup of the band are now clearly heard errors

[OldGit]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='81786' date='Oct 31 2007, 04:05 PM']It seems a lot of you started with 1210's and moved up to 1212's, was that just the 'more power!' thing or was there a genuine bonus to them that you found?[/quote]

Nah not me. This is my first. Given the dosh and opportunity I'd have had 2 cabs to lift the amp and the rest of the stuff that lives on top of my cab at gigs up to a good height, for aesthetics and flexibility but the one that came up was a 4 ohm and a bargain so that was that.
The sound difference between the Schro and every other cab I've ever used was so marked that I imagine the relative difference between the 1210 and the 1212 would be marginal by comparison.

It seems the type of tweeter makes a bigger difference ...
{OPEN} New can of worms {/}

[mcgraham]

Someone said that the 21012 is about the same dimensions as a typical 2x10. Can anyone confirm this, cos it always appears much larger than that in the images. Man, this Schroeder m'larky is turning out to be quite burdensome on the future balance of my bank account.

Mark

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='82133' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:26 PM']Someone said that the 21012 is about the same dimensions as a typical 2x10. Can anyone confirm this, cos it always appears much larger than that in the images. Man, this Schroeder m'larky is turning out to be quite burdensome on the future balance of my bank account.

Mark[/quote]

You can get all the specs from Schroeder's website.

[mcgraham]

Embarrassingly I don't know what a typical 2x10 is, I have tended due to the nature of most gigs and events I play to go through what I am provided with and thus have little to no experience of typical anything, other than my own basses.

Mark

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='82222' date='Nov 1 2007, 03:07 PM']Embarrassingly I don't know what a typical 2x10 is, I have tended due to the nature of most gigs and events I play to go through what I am provided with and thus have little to no experience of typical anything, other than my own basses.

Mark[/quote]

Im in the same boat. I only know about what i have and i dont have that much.
The 21012 is bigger and dearer than the 1212 and 1210 though. I would say its more like a small 410 than a 210.
The 12xx are like 210's.
I was going to go for a 21012 but cost etc put me off. By all accounts it can knock walls down and i dont ever need to do that (unless my guitarist is leaning against it at the time ;-).

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='82133' date='Nov 1 2007, 10:26 AM']Someone said that the 21012 is about the same dimensions as a typical 2x10. Can anyone confirm this, cos it always appears much larger than that in the images. Man, this Schroeder m'larky is turning out to be quite burdensome on the future balance of my bank account.

Mark[/quote]

...a bit bigger, but as easy to carry, IMO.

Oh, and about 1,000 times better. IMO.

[mcgraham]

Thanks for the info, I didn't think it could be the same size as a 2x10, a little bigger maybe but there is a limit to the number of laws of physics that Jorg can break, and he's already broken his quota.

Hmmm, there is going to be a wait involved before I obtain a Schroeder so I may see how things pan out as to which specific cab I get.

Mark

[billynoband]

The best thing you can do with any 2x10 cab is to build a BFM Omni 10 , take the speakers out and put them in the homemade cab. Its the only BFM design that you can use any bass speaker in.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='82236' date='Nov 1 2007, 08:38 AM']there is a limit to the number of laws of physics that Jorg can break, and he's already broken his quota.[/quote]
Au contraire, his cabs do exactly what the laws of physics demand that they will. In this case it's Hoffman's Iron Law. When you make the cab volume that a driver operates in smaller sensitivity rises, at the expense of low frequency response. It sounds louder, but doesn't go as low. If you want to go both loud and low you must go larger as well.

[quote name='billynoband' post='84091' date='Nov 5 2007, 12:18 PM']The best thing you can do with any 2x10 cab is to build a BFM Omni 10 , take the speakers out and put them in the homemade cab. Its the only BFM design that you can use any bass speaker in.[/quote]I wouldn't go that far. It's not a very demanding design of the driver used but the garbage in garbage out rule still applies.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[OldGit]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='84124' date='Nov 5 2007, 06:03 PM']Au contraire, his cabs do exactly what the laws of physics demand that they will. In this case it's Hoffman's Iron Law. When you make the cab volume that a driver operates in smaller sensitivity rises, at the expense of low frequency response. It sounds louder, but doesn't go as low. If you want to go both loud and low you must go larger as well.[/quote]

Bill can you explain how the Schroeder cabs allow us to be heard clearly all over the stage and venue at a relatively low volume?
It's intriguing
Thanks

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='OldGit' post='84189' date='Nov 5 2007, 03:18 PM']Bill can you explain how the Schroeder cabs allow us to be heard clearly all over the stage and venue at a relatively low volume?
It's intriguing
Thanks[/quote]
Search 'Fletcher-Munson' curves. The ear is more sensitive to midbass than low bass frequencies, and Schroeder cabs accentuate the midbass.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='84198' date='Nov 5 2007, 08:34 PM']Search 'Fletcher-Munson' curves. The ear is more sensitive to midbass than low bass frequencies, and Schroeder cabs accentuate the midbass.[/quote]

So could the effect be achieved by any cab with the right eq settings?
It seems to be "more different" than that ...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='OldGit' post='84206' date='Nov 5 2007, 03:43 PM']So could the effect be achieved by any cab with the right eq settings?
It seems to be "more different" than that ...[/quote]
Here's what happens when you load a 4 cu ft cab with either one (yellow trace) or two Eminence (blue trace) 2512 twelves.

With two twelves sensitivity jumps above 80 Hz, but dies below that. Above 80 Hz the ear is literally twice as sensitive as it is below 80 Hz, so there is a major difference in the relative 'loudness' of the two cabs, despite their being the same size. The trade off is that it will take four times the amplifier power to get the same output below 80 Hz from the 2x should you wish to do so.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='84270' date='Nov 5 2007, 11:37 PM']Here's what happens when you load a 4 cu ft cab with either one (yellow trace) or two Eminence (blue trace) 2512 twelves.

With two twelves sensitivity jumps above 80 Hz, but dies below that. Above 80 Hz the ear is literally twice as sensitive as it is below 80 Hz, so there is a major difference in the relative 'loudness' of the two cabs, despite their being the same size. The trade off is that it will take four times the amplifier power to get the same output below 80 Hz from the 2x should you wish to do so.[/quote]


OK Thanks

[mcgraham]

Thanks for the insight Bill! It's always interesting to learn from someone in the know such as yourself.

I studied physics at uni but never got to discuss much about such things there, although I had a great chat with a lecturer about sound waves and resonances specifically pertaining to electric instruments and how (in his rather authoritative and professional opinion) there should be little to no effect on the sound of a solid body electric instrument as a result of the woods it is made from... can of worms there! I'm now working at a patent firm in the tech and engineering side, hopefully I'll get to have a nosey at some interesting sound related systems before long.

Robbie, I won't be ordering a TF or any amp first hand before 2008 so in the event you don't have them in stock if/when I do order, how long would it normally take to get them in? Also you've got a PM.

Mark

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='84334' date='Nov 6 2007, 04:06 AM']I studied physics at uni but never got to discuss much about such things there, although I had a great chat with a lecturer about sound waves and resonances specifically pertaining to electric instruments and how (in his rather authoritative and professional opinion) there should be little to no effect on the sound of a solid body electric instrument as a result of the woods it is made from...
Mark[/quote]
Obviously not a player he, and IMO not much of an acoustician either. The mass and density of not only the body but all else as well makes as much difference with an electric as it does with an acoustic. One of Les Paul's early goals was to remove the body as a factor in tone, but early on he realized that short of using solid granite that goal was unacheivable. He didn't settle on a maple top over mahogany back just because of how it looked.