"Core Tone" isn't very important in your bass.

[Jerry_B]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='735653' date='Feb 4 2010, 11:34 PM']Is it the bass "tone" in and of itself or the space it occupies in the music though? Most of the time you can't even tell what the bass would sound like in isolation, yet we tend to worry about it. I've found lately that I rarely need anything above 500hz in my sound, 1k if I'm feeling modern! I doubt anyone notices that a huge chunk of my sound is missing - I certainly don't.[/quote]

You can get occasions in a song when a bass is just on it's own, with nothing else (not even drums). The problem then is what happens to it when everything else kicks in, and whether the bass still retains that singular presence.

[XB26354]

This is an interesting thread let down by what is imho a dumbass comment.
How, in any way, shape or form did Jaco have a "sh*t" tone? What is a "sh*t" tone anyway? He last recorded around 1985 so what was "sh*t" then and has it become "sh*t" now due to the passage of time and imitators?

[jakenewmanbass]

I haven't read the entire thread but think I have the gist. I would say this:
Many people that I have played with over the years have made comments about this that or the other thing 'not mattering' to audience perception whether that be the sound the level of accuracy etc etc
I have always tried to (rather clumsily) counter with the following
We deal with details in music in a way that the public generally don't, but what we should never do is underestimate the sophistication of judgement that can be available to an audience. We must remember that they are responding in a very base (no pun intended) way to what we do, there is a communication on a level at which we are barely conscious.
The one thing that playing in various places across the world has taught me is that there can be a time and a moment where everything drops into place and it all just goes right...
I can't recount individual examples particularly as I would be here all night as I have played literally thousands of gigs over the 30 years I've been gigging but I've been lucky and there have been a number of occasions when I was utterly electrified by the events of an evenings work.
What I'm trying to get to is this... the elements of what I'm trying to explain are many and varied and I have to say that 'tone' is one of those elements. Especially for the bass because it moves people, right to their core.
For my part I think that comes mostly from the player....

[xilddx]

[quote name='XB26354' post='735696' date='Feb 5 2010, 12:20 AM']This is an interesting thread let down by what is imho a dumbass comment.
How, in any way, shape or form did Jaco have a "sh*t" tone? What is a "sh*t" tone anyway? He last recorded around 1985 so what was "sh*t" then and has it become "sh*t" now due to the passage of time and imitators?[/quote]
His sound was sh*t because it was never sympathetic with the music, he was possibly the most selfish bassist ever to gain glory. His technique and musicality were awe inspiring, but his sound was brash, ugly and selfish, and he was only ever out for himself.

I have not let the thread down with my comment either, there has been some superb debate on this thread which has really got me thinking. Thank you for challenging my view on Jaco's sh*t sound though, I appreciate it.

[xilddx]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='735702' date='Feb 5 2010, 12:36 AM']We deal with details in music in a way that the public generally don't, but what we should never do is underestimate the sophistication of judgement that can be available to an audience. We must remember that they are responding in a very base (no pun intended) way to what we do, there is a communication on a level at which we are barely conscious.[/quote]
That is a beautiful way of expressing what I couldn't.

[xilddx]

Yes, I do realise I have just contradicted myself.

[Steve A]

[quote name='silddx' post='735706' date='Feb 5 2010, 12:42 AM']...but his sound was brash, ugly and selfish, and he was only ever out for himself.[/quote]


I disagree. In my opinion his sound with Weather Report on 'A Remark You Made' and 'Canonball' among others is soft and beautiful, his phrasing melodic and serving the music.

Joni Mitchell employed him for what he brought to the music, his characterful playing and his tone. Listen to the other bass player who plays in a more standard manner on an album like Hejira. Meat and potatoes and nothing wrong with that. But Jaco's playing stands out head and shoulders above that because of the (at the time) uniqueness of his sound and the personality and character in his playing.

Nobody could match Jaco in those days as far as expression goes. You can't get that level of expression without paying attention, in great detail, to your personal sound.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Steve Amadeo

[XB26354]

[quote name='Steve Amadeo' post='735710' date='Feb 5 2010, 12:49 AM']I disagree. In my opinion his sound with Weather Report on 'A Remark You Made' and 'Canonball' among others is soft and beautiful, his phrasing melodic and serving the music.

Joni Mitchell employed him for what he brought to the music, his characterful playing and his tone. Listen to the other bass player who plays in a more standard manner on an album like Hejira. Meat and potatoes and nothing wrong with that. But Jaco's playing stands out head and shoulders above that because of the (at the time) uniqueness of his sound and the personality and character in his playing.

Nobody could match Jaco in those days as far as expression goes. You can't get that level of expression without paying attention, in great detail, to your personal sound.[/quote]

That is a beautiful way of expressing what I couldn't.

[Sibob]

Jaco had his core sound, his tone that he was happy with and made gigs that much more enjoyable for him. People would hire him to sound like himself. Regardless of one's personal views of the specific tone in question, I would probably say that being critically acclaimed & paid to be yourself is a position that deserves respect.

Si

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='51m0n' post='735281' date='Feb 4 2010, 05:13 PM']But in your fat ole tube hifi you arent going anywhere near breakup anyway, cos that would start to make the sound less crisp everytime, and more and more compressed. Thats exactly what happens when you push bass hard into a big lead sled tube amp. [b]Great for rock bass, rubbish for hifi![/b][/quote]
You've patently never heard Bach's Toccata & Fugue in Dm through a '69 Marshall head & a pair of WEM 2 x 15s. (The 1971 Daniel Chorzempa transcription, obviously)

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='735473' date='Feb 4 2010, 08:15 PM']On arrival in Blighty, these pineapples would then be bartered for, say, sprouts, cabbages or [b]coconuts[/b], which would then be used on the return journey [b]to[/b] Hawaii.[/quote]
My dear Mr Delvar, I really must protest at this manifestation of hearsay and rumour from one normally as erudite as your good self. The Coconut is, as ane fule kno, 1: Quite voracious (owing to it being indigenous to the Malvern Hills) and, 2: [i]Very[/i] secretive. As such it is madness, Sir, [i]madness[/i], to propose transporting it in the company of the Wily Sprout, which is well-known for its Republican Views and its ability to foment unrest. Such a move can only result in the End of Civilisation As We Know It, and possibly even the Overthrow of The Monarchy!

And as to this fanciful notion that such a place as this "Hawaii" actually existed... ...that was a Convenient Fiction perpetrated by that Scoundrel Drake to cover up his turning Left out of Plymouth. His "Circumnavigation" was a complete fabrication to account for a year-long absence which was actually spent on a [i]massive[/i] bender in the stews of Newquay.

How long should one boil a Coconut for? My copy of Mrs Beeton appears to be rather remiss in this department.

I am, Sir, as ever,

Respectfully Yours, etc.

[gjones]

[quote name='TimR' post='735461' date='Feb 4 2010, 08:01 PM']Ultimately there are only two catagories of people who listen to the bass tone at a gig.

1) The Bass player.
2) A Bass player in the audience.

To most people we're the big guitar at the back.

Other players have complemented me on my tone. I assume my playing sucks, but the piece of wood and other expensive hardware I bought to smash those notes out sounds good.[/quote]


Sad but true.

[gjones]

[quote name='ped' post='735666' date='Feb 4 2010, 11:42 PM']I doubt many of us really mind what the audience think, though. We are nerds and as such like to get our sound the way we like it, regardless of how the ignorant public feel. I don't do it for anyone other than myself. It's the same with anything, really. I almost like the fact that its something only I appreciate![/quote]

Yes......we are nerds (I am reading this topic at 2am......therefore I am a nerd).

Edited February 5, 2010 by gjones

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='735702' date='Feb 5 2010, 12:36 AM']The one thing that playing in various places across the world has taught me is that there can be a time and a moment where everything drops into place and it all just goes right...
...
For my part I think that comes mostly from the player....[/quote]

I am so relieved you didn't conclude with "... and I think without my fancy onboard preamp that magic could never happen"

[xilddx]

[quote name='Steve Amadeo' post='735710' date='Feb 5 2010, 12:49 AM']I disagree. In my opinion his sound with Weather Report on 'A Remark You Made' and 'Canonball' among others is soft and beautiful, his phrasing melodic and serving the music.

Joni Mitchell employed him for what he brought to the music, his characterful playing and his tone. Listen to the other bass player who plays in a more standard manner on an album like Hejira. Meat and potatoes and nothing wrong with that. But Jaco's playing stands out head and shoulders above that because of the (at the time) uniqueness of his sound and the personality and character in his playing.

Nobody could match Jaco in those days as far as expression goes. You can't get that level of expression without paying attention, in great detail, to your personal sound.[/quote]
Those are fair points.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='Johnston' post='735810' date='Feb 5 2010, 08:43 AM']A quick question for yous!!

Whats better a night that you get your tone spot on but the gig is a lead ballon due to other factors[/quote]

That would be crap, but I'd take a crumb of comfort.

[quote name='Johnston' post='735810' date='Feb 5 2010, 08:43 AM']A night your own carefuly crafted tone goes awry but the gig is one of them good ones that gives you a real buzz????[/quote]

That would be great, but I'd wish I'd got my tone right.


Worse case scenario is that the gigs crap and your amp breaks. I've had one of them!

[chris_b]

[quote name='Johnston' post='735810' date='Feb 5 2010, 08:43 AM']....Whats better a night that you get your tone spot on but the gig is a lead ballon due to other factors
OR
A night your own carefuly crafted tone goes awry but the gig is one of them good ones that gives you a real buzz????....[/quote]
You're part of a team, and all that really matters to the audience, promoter and other team members is that the team does well.

Professional pride should make sure that you always do your best to excel in all areas. All the bands and artists I play with appreciate a "team player" more than a self centred virtuoso, so that's my priority.

Edited February 5, 2010 by chris_b

[Toasted]

I'm all about the cleans.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='Toasted' post='735831' date='Feb 5 2010, 09:16 AM']I'm all about the cleans.[/quote]


My house needs doing. When are you free?

[xilddx]

[quote name='chris_b' post='735829' date='Feb 5 2010, 09:15 AM']You're part of a team, and all that really matters to the audience, promoter and other team members is that the team does well.

Professional pride should make sure that you always do your best to excel in all areas. All the bands and artists I play with appreciate a "team player" more than a self centred virtuoso, so that's my priority.[/quote]
Same here. Well said.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735319' date='Feb 4 2010, 05:47 PM']Yeah I know, I'm just being pedantic. My original point was it's a mistake to think the tone of an instrument no longer matters because you can dial in tone, when "good tone" (ie the tone you want) is about maximising the quality of the signal from start to finish and taking control of it through whichever means are best. It's not about thinking "Well, I can't tell the difference, swap it out for an inferior substitute", because, that is the road to sh!t tone. [/quote]

If you can't tell the difference, then the substitute isn't inferior!

[51m0n]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='735912' date='Feb 5 2010, 10:56 AM']If you can't tell the difference, then the substitute isn't inferior![/quote]

I think what BigJohn is saying is that you may not tell the difference with any one inferior choice. After all the difference from that particular item, although measurable, may be imperceptible.

But if you continue with that mindset, replacing many things with inferior items in your signal path, then the total difference will become perceptible, even if the difference at any one stage is imperceptible.

As he states, that is the route to a substandard tone.

[Prosebass]

[quote name='silddx' post='735433' date='Feb 4 2010, 07:37 PM']Not sure how to respond to that Thank you! Old Holborn and green Rizla?[/quote]

Best thread for ages but.......
Obviously the above proves you don't know what you are talking about.
Everyone knows its Golden Virginia and Green Zig Zag ,

[51m0n]

Take poor quality patch leads as a simplistic example.

You have a board with 5 pedals on, so thats 4 patch leads.

You use top quality cable in your home spun patch cables, and top quality gold plated neutriks right angle plugs. These are bespoke rolls royce quality patch cables.

Yet one fails, so for that gig you replace it with the only available ultra cheap nasty as patch cable.

You dont notice any diff on the gig, hooray you say, I can save a bundle here! You replace all the remainder of your deluxe patch cables with el cheapo cr@ptastic ones.

Hmmm, suddenly your bypass tone is losing some bottm and top, maybe, just. But you can live with it! Its only just perceptible, and with the nature of the human ear, and the inherent laziness of musicians you dont do a straight A/B test to see how bad its got, you just have a sneaky feeling, but its so much cheaper that you can live with it.

Next week your beloved Carl Martin chorus goes kufffuuuttt on the gig (damned nasty power spike for instance) chorus is integral to your sound on the gig, so you borrow a nasty no name chorus from someone, Again the tone in bypass, it a tiny iot worse, maybe (hard to tell on the gig, its all so damn loud anyway, and you had a couple of drinks). The guy who lent it to you says keep hold of it till you have a replacement.

Next time you go into the studio to record, you compare the result with last time and your tone is sucking big time.

You blame the sound guy.

You get fired from the gig, your reputation for great tone in tatters....

You and your family subsequently starve, because everyone knows that the public all have golden ears that can tell the difference - no really....

Because you didnt take core tone seriously!

Dont say I didnt warn you

[cheddatom]

[quote name='51m0n' post='735925' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:03 AM']I think what BigJohn is saying is that you may not tell the difference with any one inferior choice. After all the difference from that particular item, although measurable, may be imperceptible.

But if you continue with that mindset, replacing many things with inferior items in your signal path, then the total difference will become perceptible, even if the difference at any one stage is imperceptible.

As he states, that is the route to a substandard tone.[/quote]

Surely you listen and re-asses with every new peice of equipment in the chain?

If I have an all valve rig, but then I try a POD and realise I could carry the same tone around much easier, I chose the POD, and it's not an inferior choice. Then I try the phaser on the POD and realise I can get it to sound like the vintage boutique pedal I spent £500, so I chose the POD and it's not an inferior choice. Then I try the squire VMJ and it sounds the same as my £4k super jazz, so I take the squire to gigs..... etc.

I just think there's a hell of a lot of b*llocks said about tone, usually by people with more money than sense (or listening ability).

[cheddatom]

Also, I can't beleive you people rolling with green papers! Yuck! They're so thick, they give me a sore throat and make me cough (more). I always use silver.