"Core Tone" isn't very important in your bass.

[51m0n]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='735938' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:14 AM']Surely you listen and re-asses with every new peice of equipment in the chain?

If I have an all valve rig, but then I try a POD and realise I could carry the same tone around much easier, I chose the POD, and it's not an inferior choice. Then I try the phaser on the POD and realise I can get it to sound like the vintage boutique pedal I spent £500, so I chose the POD and it's not an inferior choice. Then I try the squire VMJ and it sounds the same as my £4k super jazz, so I take the squire to gigs..... etc.

I just think there's a hell of a lot of b*llocks said about tone, usually by people with more money than sense (or listening ability).[/quote]

But you didnt test the entire end result against the entire "best of breed" chain did you.....

Because you have to trade one for another as often as not.

So you swap one imerceptible (but measurable) inferiority for its superior original, and over time you introduce perceptibly inferior tone, but YOU cant tell, because it all happened so gradually.

Edited February 5, 2010 by 51m0n

[Chris2112]

[quote name='silddx' post='735706' date='Feb 5 2010, 12:42 AM']His sound was sh*t because it was never sympathetic with the music, he was possibly the most selfish bassist ever to gain glory. His technique and musicality were awe inspiring, but his sound was brash, ugly and selfish, and he was only ever out for himself.[/quote]

If it is his selfish nature that has created so many beautiful sounds, then I wish I could be that selfish. Jaco's sound is still one of my absolute favourite tones, and the "Jaco honk" on a nice fretless bass is very versatile and can really be used anywhere!

[xilddx]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='735938' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:14 AM']Surely you listen and re-asses with every new peice of equipment in the chain?

If I have an all valve rig, but then I try a POD and realise I could carry the same tone around much easier, I chose the POD, and it's not an inferior choice. Then I try the phaser on the POD and realise I can get it to sound like the vintage boutique pedal I spent £500, so I chose the POD and it's not an inferior choice. Then I try the squire VMJ and it sounds the same as my £4k super jazz, so I take the squire to gigs..... etc.

I just think there's a hell of a lot of b*llocks said about tone, usually by people with more money than sense (or listening ability).[/quote]

That's almost exactly what I did. Except for the basses, but I flogged my entire guit*r rig with valve amp, boutique pedals, etc. and got a POD. Best thing I ever did.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='735943' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:20 AM']If it is his selfish nature that has created so many beautiful sounds, then I wish I could be that selfish. Jaco's sound is still one of my absolute favourite tones, and the "Jaco honk" on a nice fretless bass is very versatile and can really be used anywhere![/quote]
Eurgh. I hate that sound. I hate "honk" and "burp" (what in hell's name is "burp" all about??). If I want burp I'll drink half a gallon of Morrison's Cola. But I don't want "burp", that's why I don't drink it.

TBH, I generally only really get off on massive dub tones, so I'm prejudiced.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='51m0n' post='735935' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:13 AM']You and your family subsequently starve, because everyone knows that the public all have golden ears that can tell the difference - no really....

Because you didnt take core tone seriously!

Dont say I didnt warn you [/quote]


Well put.

If you don't look after your tone, your tone won't look after you.

Edited February 5, 2010 by bigjohn

[cheddatom]

[quote name='51m0n' post='735942' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:17 AM']But you didnt test the entire end result against the entire "best of breed" chain did you.....

Because you have to trade one for another as often as not.

So you swap one imerceptible (but measurable) inferiority for its superior original, and over time you introduce perceptibly inferior tone, but YOU cant tell, because it all happened so gradually.[/quote]

Well, in the situation I was describing, I did compare with the "best" chain, which means it's technically not the best chain.

I take your point though. I wish I was rich enough to worry about whether my modelling sounds as good as an all valve head. I'd love to be rich enough to try different cabs! Fortunately, I can use my pedal board to re-create my sound through my cheap sh*t rig, and through FOH PAs, without worrying about tiny (im)perceptible nuances.

[51m0n]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='735954' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:25 AM']Well, in the situation I was describing, I did compare with the "best" chain, which means it's technically not the best chain.

I take your point though. I wish I was rich enough to worry about whether my modelling sounds as good as an all valve head. I'd love to be rich enough to try different cabs! Fortunately, I can use my pedal board to re-create my sound through my cheap sh*t rig, and through FOH PAs, without worrying about tiny (im)perceptible nuances.[/quote]

Dont we all!

Please realise I actually stand in the camp that states, "If its working for you its right".

However the very best tone possible for a given player and situation can only be assesed by comparing complete systems against each other, not by swapping individual parts out one at a time. The nature of the human ear/brain and its blatant pantsness in remembering with any realiable accuracy differences in timbre mean this is the case.

I completely agree that this is rarely a practical solution though!

Your brain tries very hard to smooth out anomolies in sounds. An example, does your living environment sound reasonably quiet to you when everything is switched off? Now go and turn off the main power to the house and go listen again. Chances are you had simply got used to a certain amount of background noise.

When working on a mixdown its vital to constantly (every 5 or 10 minutes, sometimes) refresh or 'reset' your ears by listening to a mastered album track that matches (however loosely) your goals for the overall sound of the mix you are working on. Bob Birthright taught me the value of this, and he was spot on!

The moral of the story?

Even half an hour of mucking around invalidates your ability to truly make an AB comparison without switching back to the orignal.

Edited February 5, 2010 by 51m0n

[bigjohn]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='735939' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:15 AM']Also, I can't beleive you people rolling with green papers! Yuck! They're so thick, they give me a sore throat and make me cough (more). I always use silver.[/quote]

I'll agree with you on that.

I'm not agreeing with you on the Pod thing. They're not like valve amps at all. Although you can make them sound like a valve amp.

It's the same doing an impression of somebody. You might be able to impersonate a certain mannerism or someone's voice in a certain situation. Though that might be useful / amusing. It doesn't mean that you've magically morphed into the person your impersonating does it?

I can completely agree that Pods and the like are far more useful (in terms of flexibility) and practical than a great big valve amp... but to say that there's no difference? That's a nonsense. They're (like everything) a compromise.

Edited February 5, 2010 by bigjohn

[xilddx]

[quote name='ped' post='735554' date='Feb 4 2010, 09:57 PM']Very interesting discussion chaps.

It is something I have thought about a lot myself. I was lucky to find 'my' bass a while ago, one that primarily 'felt' right, the action/relief was spot on (and hasn't been touched since I got it) and of the same importance it sounds, to me, just right.

From this 'comfortable' launchpad I was then able to delve into researching and trying various rigs and processors to expand my range of sounds. You must understand that 99% of the time when recording I am DI'd straight to the desk, and still am, so this experiment was from a purely recreational standpoint.

I found out that weather I played through a desk, a Mesa 400+/1516BE rig, a Hartke 3500 rig, an SVT, a Trace Elliot V4 rig, a poweramp and pod rig, an in ear rig, a DI box, an SWR redhead, a Peavey Firebass, whatever it was, I sounded the same, my bass always came through with that velvety graphite clear punchy sound.

The Pod was great fun and it enabled me to emulate different amplifiers, which was great fun and also produced some cool synths. However, i found no matter what I did, I simply couldn't create another bass sound convincingly, because one thing I couldn't do was alter the way the pickups interpreted the string movement. You simply can't get a jazz bass sound from a stingray. You can EQ it and mess about with it and it might sound less like a ray, but it won't sound much like a jazz (and if anyone has a clip demonstrating the contrary I would love to see it, because maybe someone can, but I couldn't!)

...Enter the Vbass (or VB99) and associated GK pickup (as mentioned earlier - the GK2B or GK3B or even, like I now FINALLY have installed, the internal system). Now I can emulate amplifier sounds, but crucially, I can 'move' the 'pickups' on the bass. Each string is processed individually and the brain knows exactly how long the strings speaking length is. I can do a Jazz bass, a musicmam, all sorts, with extreme accuracy, because I am altering the one thing that nothing else can. I'm not changing the EQ at all, I'm moving the 'pickups' and fundamentally changing the characteristics of the sound. It's a really great tool to have if you like having the ONE bass, but having access to the classics too - I never really found a P or J that I was fully happy with in terms of comfort, so now I have it all on my fave bass.

I know I have said this before but I really think it is a criminally underrated piece of equipment which has opened up so many doors for me. It's a whole new way of looking at the issue of emulating other sounds. That said, you can also design your own basses by choosing where the pickups go for each string. Its amazingly complicated but the possibilities are endless, and, more importantly, sound incredible. I sold everything else I had as a result.

Still, 99% of the time I'm playing with everything bypassed using my natural magnetic pickup sound into a poweramp, so I value both extremes - 100% natural and clean, and 100% digital. They both work for me and both have the potential to sound perfect. Unlike the knob holding the bass. I need a V-me.

ped[/quote]
I heard ped's synth rig at the SE Bass bash. I have to say, his sounds were the most rich, lush, immacculate sounds and you would NEVER know it was a synth. NEVER!

[Prosebass]

[quote name='silddx' post='735944' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:21 AM']That's almost exactly what I did. Except for the basses, but I flogged my entire guit*r rig with valve amp, boutique pedals, etc. and got a POD. Best thing I ever did.[/quote]

must admit that my Line 6 GX and Pod Farm are amazing bits of kit through my Laptop and earphones / hi-fi and give me a much better sound than any bass amp and cab I have tried.
I cannot see the point of buying expensive / heavy backline gear when you can use Pods and the like ? Surely from a live perspective a band is better spending as much as possible on the PA / Mixer / Monitors and sorting the sound through the PA ?

Many years ago (early 1980's) I saw a pub band that had very little backline and used 4 Bose 802's , 2 Bose subs and a full 24/8/2 board and they sounded sublime. 'Its the future' I thought but still I see bassists complaining of weighty gear and transport problems.

As regards basic tone, every bass I make or modify gets auditioned in front of Mrs Prosebass and she always says the same, which is, ' no matter what bass you play they all sound the same' which is so true.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='51m0n' post='735965' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:34 AM']Even half an hour of mucking around invalidates your ability to truly make an AB comparison without switching back to the orignal.[/quote]

Yeh, I do agree, and regularly try to "refresh" my ears when mixing.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735966' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:34 AM']I'll agree with you on that.[/quote]

Thank god i'm not alone!

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735966' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:34 AM']I'm not agreeing with you on the Pod thing. They're not like valve amps at all. Although you can make them sound like a valve amp.

It's the same doing an impression of somebody. You might be able to impersonate a certain mannerism or someone's voice in a certain situation. Though that might be useful / amusing. It doesn't mean that you've magically morphed into the person your impersonating does it?

I can completely agree that Pods and the like are far more useful and practical than a great big valve amp... but to say that there's no difference? That's a nonsense.[/quote]

I didn't say that there's no difference, or that they're the same. I'm saying that set right, the two can sound (to the most discerning human ear) exactly the same. It's obviously possible. Then, if two things sound exactly the same, there is no inferior choice.

You do then have to take other things into consideration IE the whole signal chain (as 5imon was saying). Perhaps they sound exactly the same until you feed in a load of fizz with a fuzz pedal, at which point the high frequency response "seems" to change, etc etc.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='735974' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:39 AM']As regards basic tone, every bass I make or modify gets auditioned in front of Mrs Prosebass and she always says the same, which is, ' no matter what bass you play they all sound the same' which is so true.[/quote]

ha ha!

The last bass I bought, the GF loved it, said how it sounded much better than all the basses. I got it home, put some flats on it and she asked why I did that. "Now it sounds just like all the others!".

Edited February 5, 2010 by bigjohn

[bigjohn]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='735979' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:42 AM']I didn't say that there's no difference, or that they're the same. I'm saying that [b]set right[/b], the two can sound (to the most discerning human ear) exactly the same. It's obviously possible. Then, if two things sound exactly the same, there is no inferior choice.

You do then have to take other things into consideration IE the whole signal chain (as 5imon was saying). Perhaps they sound exactly the same until you feed in a load of fizz with a fuzz pedal, at which point the high frequency response "seems" to change, etc etc.[/quote]


Set right is a bit vague though innit? Set right for what? Valve amps don't just have one particular tone do they? (although my marshall JCM800 was pretty close) A Pod can't replicate a particular valve amp preamp / power amp at all it's EQ/gain settings can it? So therefore it's easy to tell the difference. Especially if you're using it!

At best, the settings on models are approximations, which then get further from their original intention the more you EQ them.

Edited February 5, 2010 by bigjohn

[Steve A]

[quote name='silddx' post='735803' date='Feb 5 2010, 08:35 AM']Those are fair points.[/quote]


For the sake of balance, I recently demonstrated the back pickup sound (of a lovely fretless Pensa Jazz bass I owned for a while) to a student of mine who thought it sounded thin and horrible... I personally liked the punch, woodiness and precision of the sound but it wasn't to his liking. He thought it was nasal and thin and not at all to his taste.

Simply put, we're both from very different musical backgrounds and grew up listening to very different music and it's all a matter of taste and personal preference.

As 'they' say, 'there is no accounting for taste!'

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735992' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:49 AM']Set right is a bit vague though innit? Set right for what? Valve amps don't just have one particular tone do they? (although my marshall JCM800 was pretty close) A Pod can't replicate a particular valve amp preamp / power amp at all it's EQ/gain settings can it? So therefore it's easy to tell the difference. Especially if you're using it!

At best, the settings on models are approximations, which then get further from their original intention the more you EQ them.[/quote]

Set right means setting them to the same sound.

I suppose i'm not just talking about modelling specifically. Using my pedal board and a PA, I reckon I could approximate almost every sound. No, I couldn't set up an absolute copy of a head including it's EQ.

As far as models go, I wouldn't know how advanced the latest ones are, but it's clearly withint the realms of possibility to model exactly the behaviour of a valve (or SS) amp. You stick white noise in one end, monitor the other end, and attach actuators (or whatever they're called) to the amp's knobs. Simple!

[bigjohn]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='736024' date='Feb 5 2010, 12:04 PM']Set right means setting them to the same sound.

I suppose i'm not just talking about modelling specifically. Using my pedal board and a PA, I reckon I could approximate almost every sound. No, I couldn't set up an absolute copy of a head including it's EQ.

As far as models go, I wouldn't know how advanced the latest ones are, but it's clearly withint the realms of possibility to model exactly the behaviour of a valve (or SS) amp. You stick white noise in one end, monitor the other end, and attach actuators (or whatever they're called) to the amp's knobs. Simple![/quote]


Ok. So lets suppose you can model a valve, or whatever amp you like down to imperceptible differences that the player, never mind the audience can't hear. And your cabs do the biz.

Do you think you should / could put a crap bass (in terms of tone) into the chain at the beginning?

Edited February 5, 2010 by bigjohn

[xilddx]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='736126' date='Feb 5 2010, 01:14 PM']Ok. So lets suppose you can model a valve, or whatever amp you like down to imperceptible differences that the player, never mind the audience can't hear. And your cabs do the biz.

Do you think you should / could put a crap bass (in terms of tone) into the chain at the beginning?[/quote]
Wot? Like a Satellite?

[51m0n]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='736126' date='Feb 5 2010, 01:14 PM']Ok. So lets suppose you can model a valve, or whatever amp you like down to imperceptible differences that the player, never mind the audience can't hear. And your cabs do the biz.

Do you think you should / could put a crap bass (in terms of tone) into the chain at the beginning?[/quote]


Tone is a result of the entire signal chain though.

It may be that that bass, though crap DI'ed, has a particular synergy with the cables/fx/amp/cab/drive/room/mic or ear such that the resultant tone is perfect to you.

However the chances of a better starting point (ie a better sounding bass) sounding better after everything else is said and done are fairly high.

Having said that though, Bootsy has often stated that although the ubiquitous Star bass(es) looked absolutely perfect, their tone was pretty shoddy.

Once he'd gone through a bazillion fx and into his monster 18 cab rig though, the tone was uber-funk-tasti-gasmic-apopolous or something.

[Pete Academy]

Whatever you think of Jaco and his sound, you couldn't imagine Weather Report without it. Birdland with a dub tone?

I still think it's mostly in the fingers.

And I would say reliability is the number one factor when you buy anything. You can have the best sound in the world, but if your gear packs up, you're f***ed.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='736126' date='Feb 5 2010, 01:14 PM']Ok. So lets suppose you can model a valve, or whatever amp you like down to imperceptible differences that the player, never mind the audience can't hear. And your cabs do the biz.

Do you think you should / could put a crap bass (in terms of tone) into the chain at the beginning?[/quote]

"crap bass" is subjective. I have a Brice 6 string which cost me around £100. I like the way it plays, and I like the way it sounds thruogh my rig. If I could get a laptop to model exactly what my rig does to give me "perfect modelling", i'd put my £100 bass through it, yeh. Depending on the sort of sound i'm going for, it might be better to use my £500 schecter 6, as that has an active pre-amp, but I wouldn't be fussed if I forgot to bring it.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='51m0n' post='736145' date='Feb 5 2010, 01:30 PM']Tone is a result of the entire signal chain though.

It may be that that bass, though crap DI'ed, has a particular synergy with the cables/fx/amp/cab/drive/room/mic or ear such that the resultant tone is perfect to you.

However the chances of a better starting point (ie a better sounding bass) sounding better after everything else is said and done are fairly high.

Having said that though, Bootsy has often stated that although the ubiquitous Star bass(es) looked absolutely perfect, their tone was pretty shoddy.

Once he'd gone through a bazillion fx and into his monster 18 cab rig though, the tone was uber-funk-tasti-gasmic-apopolous or something.[/quote]

Bootsy is blessed.




[quote name='cheddatom' post='736158' date='Feb 5 2010, 01:37 PM']"crap bass" is subjective. I have a Brice 6 string which cost me around £100. I like the way it plays, and I like the way it sounds thruogh my rig. If I could get a laptop to model exactly what my rig does to give me "perfect modelling", i'd put my £100 bass through it, yeh. Depending on the sort of sound i'm going for, it might be better to use my £500 schecter 6, as that has an active pre-amp, but I wouldn't be fussed if I forgot to bring it.[/quote]


I didn't say expensive, I said crap. ie - one which you didn't like the tone of. As the OP said "Core Tone" isn't very important.

My position is that that every part of the signal chain is important because I believe my tone is the result of my playing through these parts.

Your position, if I understand thee is that you can modify your tone through effects to such a level that some parts of your chain are inconsequential ie you can't hear the difference.

I think both positions are valid by the way. So long as the player is happy with the result.

The thing is though... do you include a bass as something where it's intrinsic addition or subtraction from your subjective tone can be safely ignored?

Edited February 5, 2010 by bigjohn

[Bilbo]

Its all about the music. Some great musicians have produced sublime art on crap gear and some great gear has been used to create some pretty crap music but one of the things I struggle with is the [i}relevance[/i] of the details some of us, as bass players, are atuned to. As I said elsewhere, I can't tell the difference between basses (ie gear) on recordings - players, yes, but not gear. I don't know a Musicman from a Wal from an Alembic from a Fender from a Status. Most of our audience can't either. All I hear is the note. There is a depth (overtones wise) that comes from higher quality instruments over those made from cheaper materials but, after a point, I don't find it that important and, depending on the circumstances, it may matter less and less. What I DO believe is that the tone your instrument produces effects the way you hear the music being played and, when you are happier, you relax and play better. I have never got that from any digital source but I have not spent any real time with effects or amp modelling so what do I know?

What I will say is that I will become convinced about the bass/amp modelling concept when they can make any electric bass sound like Ray Brown's upright. Until then, I would guess its almost always 'nearly but not quite'.

[xilddx]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='736223' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:29 PM']Its all about the music. Some great musicians have produced sublime art on crap gear and some great gear has been used to create some pretty crap music but one of the things I struggle with is the [i}relevance[/i] of the details some of us, as bass players, are atuned to. As I said elsewhere, I can't tell the difference between basses (ie gear) on recordings - players, yes, but not gear. I don't know a Musicman from a Wal from an Alembic from a Fender from a Status. Most of our audience can't either. All I hear is the note. There is a depth (overtones wise) that comes from higher quality instruments over those made from cheaper materials but, after a point, I don't find it that important and, depending on the circumstances, it may matter less and less. What I DO believe is that the tone your instrument produces effects the way you hear the music being played and, when you are happier, you relax and play better. I have never got that from any digital source but I have not spent any real time with effects or amp modelling so what do I know?

What I will say is that I will become convinced about the bass/amp modelling concept when they can make any electric bass sound like Ray Brown's upright. Until then, I would guess its almost always 'nearly but not quite'.[/quote]
Ah, the sermon from the mount.

Bilbo makes a lot of sense. How can you disagree with what he's said?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='silddx' post='736232' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:43 PM']Bilbo makes a lot of sense. How can you disagree with what he's said?[/quote]

I want that on a tee-shirt

[Marvin]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='736234' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:46 PM']I want that on a tee-shirt [/quote]
Ask Paulh,