"Core Tone" isn't very important in your bass.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='736216' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:23 PM']Your position, if I understand thee is that you can modify your tone through effects to such a level that some parts of your chain are inconsequential ie you can't hear the difference.[/quote]

I was talking about tonal shaping in general, and the way in which these days, you can get any sound from any number of methods. You don't need an all valve head, to get a sound the same as someone with one. You don't need a precision bass to sound like you're playing one etc. I don't mean to say that there are inconsequential parts in the chain. Everything in the chain has an effect, but lots of different chains, long and short, can create the same outcome.

If that much scope is available for changing your tone, then the initial "core tone" of a bass becomes almost irrelevant.

I mentioned that I would prefer one of my basses for certain sounds, because it has an active pre-amp. Well, if I wanted I could take the pre-amp out of the bass and put it in a pedal, or buy a similar sounding pre-amp to use with my other bass.

I guess there some merit in the "if i'm spending X amount on Y bass with Z rig, I don't want to need any pedals to get MY sound", which is fair enough, but you've probably got a boring tone :-p

I think the "everything needs to sound good set flat" mentality is crazy. You buy an amp, and it sounds amazing if you roll off some low end, but no, f*** that, you'd rather keep trading in amps until you find one where you can leave the EQ flat.

[Bilbo]

I guess what I am saying is that, rather than spend all that time and money trying to find 'that' sound, why not learn to love the one you have and save yourself the heartache

[xilddx]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='736239' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:53 PM']I was talking about tonal shaping in general, and the way in which these days, you can get any sound from any number of methods. You don't need an all valve head, to get a sound the same as someone with one. You don't need a precision bass to sound like you're playing one etc. I don't mean to say that there are inconsequential parts in the chain. Everything in the chain has an effect, but lots of different chains, long and short, can create the same outcome.

If that much scope is available for changing your tone, then the initial "core tone" of a bass becomes almost irrelevant.

I mentioned that I would prefer one of my basses for certain sounds, because it has an active pre-amp. Well, if I wanted I could take the pre-amp out of the bass and put it in a pedal, or buy a similar sounding pre-amp to use with my other bass.

I guess there some merit in the "if i'm spending X amount on Y bass with Z rig, I don't want to need any pedals to get MY sound", which is fair enough, but you've probably got a boring tone :-p

I think the "everything needs to sound good set flat" mentality is crazy. You buy an amp, and it sounds amazing if you roll off some low end, but no, f*** that, you'd rather keep trading in amps until you find one where you can leave the EQ flat.[/quote]

I think Ched and I have our ducks in a row here

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='736242' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:56 PM']I guess what I am saying is that, rather than spend all that time and money trying to find 'that' sound, why not learn to love the one you have and save yourself the heartache [/quote]

But then you're stuck with the same sound for the rest of your life. You'll be able to hear other cool sexy sounds, but you can't try and get them else your current sound might run away and leave you with a life of regret.

Does that ring true for any older, wiser, embittered players?

[chris_b]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='736264' date='Feb 5 2010, 03:06 PM']....Does that ring true for any older, wiser, embittered players?....[/quote]
No. GAS is wasted time, money and energy. Get a good bass, find a good sound then play the thing with as many musicians and on as many gigs as you can.

[xilddx]

[quote name='chris_b' post='736300' date='Feb 5 2010, 03:27 PM']No. GAS is wasted time, money and energy. Get a good bass, find a good sound then play the thing with as many musicians and on as many gigs as you can.[/quote]
My tastes change all the time though, that wouldn't work for me at all.

I couldn't live in the same house all my life, and I couldn't wear the same pair of underpants all my life either.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='736264' date='Feb 5 2010, 03:06 PM']But then you're stuck with the same sound for the rest of your life. You'll be able to hear other cool sexy sounds, but you can't try and get them else your current sound might run away and leave you with a life of regret.

Does that ring true for any older, wiser, embittered players? [/quote]

I see your point and don't really disagree but I wonder if its like the shape or colour of instruments. IME, wooden basses and classic shapes tend to remain attractive whereas 'modern' things date. Are bass sounds the same? A great sounding synth from 1982 or a Mellotron from 1972 would sound naff roday but a piano still holds its currency. So Bootsy's sound may not travel well whereas Jamerson's will.

[Marvin]

[quote name='silddx' post='735603' date='Feb 4 2010, 10:37 PM']Don't mate, music is a purely individual set of choices.

BTW, wasn't slagging your Ibby off earlier [/quote]


Both of my posts written with tongue in cheek really.
Si was referring to the sound, and it does look naff IMO (natural wood)
Ped's I read again and understand the concept now I'm awake.

[51m0n]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='736223' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:29 PM']What I will say is that I will become convinced about the bass/amp modelling concept when they can make any electric bass sound like Ray Brown's upright. Until then, I would guess its almost always 'nearly but not quite'.[/quote]

Actually I think the Roland vBass tech is going to get very close to doing your head in completely there very soon. Maybe not this revision, since I would imagine they sent more time on electric than upright basses, but soon. I'm sure Ped will be happy to post the upright bass sound off his vBass if he gets a chance.....


[quote name='cheddatom' post='736239' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:53 PM']I was talking about tonal shaping in general, and the way in which these days, you can get any sound from any number of methods. You don't need an all valve head, to get a sound the same as someone with one. You don't need a precision bass to sound like you're playing one etc. I don't mean to say that there are inconsequential parts in the chain. Everything in the chain has an effect, but lots of different chains, long and short, can create the same outcome.

If that much scope is available for changing your tone, then the initial "core tone" of a bass becomes almost irrelevant.

I mentioned that I would prefer one of my basses for certain sounds, because it has an active pre-amp. Well, if I wanted I could take the pre-amp out of the bass and put it in a pedal, or buy a similar sounding pre-amp to use with my other bass.

I guess there some merit in the "if i'm spending X amount on Y bass with Z rig, I don't want to need any pedals to get MY sound", which is fair enough, but you've probably got a boring tone :-p

I think the "everything needs to sound good set flat" mentality is crazy. You buy an amp, and it sounds amazing if you roll off some low end, but no, f*** that, you'd rather keep trading in amps until you find one where you can leave the EQ flat.[/quote]

I think you miss a core point here though.

If your original provider of tone (the bass) sounds pants, then you can never enjoy that bass without extra help. You must always be goosing it to get something useable. That means you are in effect missing an important possible useable tone, that of just your bass, which if you would have if your bass' tone was good enough (great even). You havent lost anything by having a great tone from your bass on its own, you've gained something instead.

Similarly with amps, if your amp sounds great flat then you have the maximum range of adjustments off your amp to sort out issues with a room, or to get other interesting tones. You on the other hand are already using up adjustment range just to get a good starting point.

My rig sounds ace flat. Really stellar, but I can get a massive variety of tones from it by playing with the eq. My bass sounds superb whereever I dial the pick up blend, and I have massive amounts of eq available on board. Some tones i wouldnt use because they are so extreme, somebody else might though. But every one is a good bass sound in the right place (some of those may be pretty whacked out places though ).

Does this mean my tone is 'boring' errr no. Every one of those tones is great, not boring.

Then I have some effects which I may or may not use, entirely dependant on musical context, and each of those effects range from extremely subtle to bonkers, and again, only a small range of the available sounds are useable for me on a gig, but none of the ones I use are boring, just (hopefully) tasteful.

But I can turn all that extra guff off, center every thing and still sound great.

If your bass and amp sound pants like that, then you cant.

I prefer the position I'm in to the one you seem to advocate.

Edited February 5, 2010 by 51m0n

[Sibob]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='736223' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:29 PM']What I DO believe is that the tone your instrument produces effects the way you hear the music being played and, when you are happier, you relax and play better.[/quote]

+1

I don't think there's any right or wrong in this thread!
My basic position, given the original context of the thread, is that regardless of what effects and EQ I'm having to apply for any given musical situation, if all of that failed and I was back to a 'naked' tone between bass and amp, I'd rather have a tone that made me happy and smile than a tone I hadn't bothered about because I was using so many other variables.

Si

[cheddatom]

[quote name='51m0n' post='736321' date='Feb 5 2010, 03:40 PM']I think you miss a core point here though.

If your original provider of tone (the bass) sounds pants, then you can never enjoy that bass without extra help. You must always be goosing it to get something useable. That means you are in effect missing an important possible useable tone, that of just your bass, which if you would have if your bass' tone was good enough (great even). You havent lost anything by having a great tone from your bass on its own, you've gained something instead......[/quote]

Sorry for snipping the post, but you basically just made the above point in detail (I think).

Yes, if my starting point is with a pedal, or with the EQ on my amp set, (or with the pre-amp engaged on my bass?) I am (in a way) not starting from 0, which limits my possibilities to a degree. Say there is + - 10db on my graphic EQ and i'm already using 3db for 2Khz. That means I can't push 2Khz to 10db. So, say with your rig you can select any one of 100 different sounds, and I give you a bass which requires a little more EQ than usual to get to the starting point, that could cut you down to 70 sounds or so.

When you have an infinite number of possible sounds, you can't by definition lose any possibilities.

I'm not saying that I have an infinite number of sounds available, but it's not far off.

It's true, with my Brice bass, I would never play (live) with it plugged straight into my amp. I would always use at least 3 pedals to get a great clean sound out of it. Just because i've used 3 pedals on the floor, instead of an 18V pre in the bass, doesn't mean my tonal possibilities are limited. No, I can't go straight from bass to amp, with everything set flat, and have it sound great. But, no, that doesn't mean I am limited (other than it takes me an extra 20 seconds to set up).

[51m0n]

We'll happily have to go with slightly different philosophies there then, and why not?

I'm with SiBob, the rest of you are all nuts!

[Marvin]

[quote name='51m0n' post='736388' date='Feb 5 2010, 04:28 PM']I'm with SiBob, the rest of you are all nuts! [/quote]
Yum
[attachment=41873:Nuts_And_Seeds.jpg]

[xilddx]

[quote name='51m0n' post='736388' date='Feb 5 2010, 04:28 PM']We'll happily have to go with slightly different philosophies there then, and why not?

I'm with SiBob, the rest of you are all nuts! [/quote]
Si made an earlier point that the tonal options he has with his pups and finger placement were enough, and any further subtle eq would be lost through the PA. I have to admit, it caused me some consternation, and I'm along the lines of agreeing he has a good point!

Here it is

[i]"If I need different sounds within a song, I'll use finger dynamics and hand placement, this is on a fairly standard pop/rock/funk gig that is. If I need a bassier/dub sound, I'll move my picking hand towards the neck, perhaps use my thumb. Need a tighter, more mid sound, play near the bridge. If I need some bite/overdrive, I'll play a lot harder over the neck pickup as I have my tube on my ashdown at 3 o'clock. This allows me to sound clean when I want to, but breaks up beautifully when played hard!. In my personal experience, any different sounds and tone further to that are generally so subtle that they'll be lost in the band mix or over the PA.

I have started messing around with my Boss Multi-FX again because I'm going to start playing for a hip-hop/electonica band soon (first rehearsal tonight actually), just some chorus, wah and octave sounds going on.....but I've got a feeling that over a large sound system and with the other warbly noises going on in the mix, I'll find myself playing straight into my amp.
"[/i]

I meant to say earlier, hope the rehearsal went well, Si.

Edited February 5, 2010 by silddx

[cheddatom]

It depends on the band I guess. I was in a 3 piece and kind of had a free reign to take up as much sonic space as I wanted. If you took away my pedalboard, 90% of the audience would notice.

[Sibob]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='736401' date='Feb 5 2010, 04:42 PM']It depends on the band I guess. I was in a 3 piece and kind of had a free reign to take up as much sonic space as I wanted. If you took away my pedalboard, 90% of the audience would notice.[/quote]

See that's the thing, my covers band is fundamentally a three piece (and then plus vocals), but when I first joined and tried using any effects to 'beef' up the sound while the guitarist solo'd, I found that they still got lost. Distortions sucked my low end away, choruses and reverbs etc just got lost through PA volume and octaves can be played manually anyway (baring in mind it's pop music so super low notes aren't needed and fast lines won't track anyway).
I take up the extra sonic space (if it sounds good to do so), with double-stops, perhaps an extended line based on the horn line in the song...or something like that.

Again, I'm not saying that anyone else's techniques are wrong, cos they make you happy, but for me I feel I can do justice to songs by adjusting my playing on my chosen bass as opposed to any other external gear I use.

And yes the rehearsal went well cheers Silldx , shooting a video on sunday, then a Camden gig next Tuesday (16th)
I ended up not using the distorted sound because......it sucked the low end out my sound
The bottom boost was cool, gives a real dub sound, and the chorus was pretty lost, although it's only meant to give a real subtle warble on the bottom anyway, so I may leave it on.
Again, just using subtle effects because of the musical situation, but all added to a solid tone that can stand alone if necessary.

Si

[xilddx]

[quote name='Sibob' post='736455' date='Feb 5 2010, 05:32 PM']And yes the rehearsal went well cheers Silldx , shooting a video on sunday, then a Camden gig next Tuesday (16th)
I ended up not using the distorted sound because......it sucked the low end out my sound
The bottom boost was cool, gives a real dub sound, and the chorus was pretty lost, although it's only meant to give a real subtle warble on the bottom anyway, so I may leave it on.
Again, just using subtle effects because of the musical situation, but all added to a solid tone that can stand alone if necessary.

Si[/quote]

Top!

Where are you playing in Camden on the 16th?

[thumperbob 2002]

I would always prefer to use just a bass and an amp- sick and tired of buying batteries and messing about with more leads than I need and tripping over pedals. Agree that most tone comes from the fingers and instead of people contantly debating about this small bass thing or that small bass thing why dont they just go out and gig.

[TimR]

I find that when I struggle to get the tone I want from my bass its usually time to change the strings. Its not possible to AB strings to see if they are dead yet, they just slowly die and that creeps up on you, all of a sudden you're playing one day and you just think "I need some new gear this just sounds so awful".

[silverfoxnik]

Great thread! Nig - do you put your thread ideas through a POD as well??

Not sure if any of this matters in an absolute sense really, since we all play the bass in a unique way and use our amps/effects etc so differently.

I heard Ped's V-Bass set up at the SE Bash and it was very impressive, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if ten different bass players used it and they all managed to make it sound different, even though it's a digital piece of kit.

At the Bash it was brilliant to hear how wonderful just a solo double-bass could sound (as played by Jake or Bassace) and great to hear Ped's versatile V-Bass set-up doing a zillion and one things..

We literally have the world at our fingertips these days!

[Happy Jack]

Just one thing has been missing from this thread so far ...

[attachment=41899:NigelTufnel1.jpg]

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='735939' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:15 AM']Also, I can't beleive you people rolling with green papers! Yuck! They're so thick, they give me a sore throat and make me cough (more). I always use silver.[/quote]
Silver are a step too far - you need blue (and Cutter's Choice).

[xilddx]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='737073' date='Feb 6 2010, 12:17 PM']Silver are a step too far - you need blue (and Cutter's Choice).[/quote]
I can't stand blues, they taste weird to me.

There is also no difference between green and red other than green have the corners clipped. Nevertheless, I simply can't use red, I perceive a difference even though it isn't there! Plenty of people think red has salt petre in them to help them burn, it's not true.

[xilddx]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='736735' date='Feb 5 2010, 10:26 PM']Great thread! Nig - do you put your thread ideas through a POD as well??[/quote]
I tried but they cooked the firmware

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='silddx' post='737084' date='Feb 6 2010, 12:28 PM']I tried but they cooked the firmware [/quote]
Your brain obviously has a very high 'output'!