Fascinating inside secrets about Gibson Les Pauls and choosing one:

[xilddx]

This is a fascinating interview with a MrX who knows an awful lot of stuff about how to choose a Les Paul, how rare a good one is, and how poor Gibson QC can be.

I learned a lot about choosing a bass from this even though basses get no mention.

That's why I put it here instead of Off Topic, but Mods, please move it if you see fit.

[url="http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/new/node/240"]http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/new/node/240[/url]

[Tinman]

Yeah, I've read that article before. It's a bit of an eye opener isn't it?

[redstriper]

It confirms that buying without trying is very risky.

This says it all really: "if you're hot to buy a guitar right now, you're gonna get burned. Wait for the right one. Be patient and play a lot of them. You just did the math — you may have to play 50 or 100 to find a real good one. Most people don't have the patience for that. But if you only play ten or 20 in a store, and they all sound about the same, there probably isn't a good one in that batch, because the real good ones will stand out noticeably from the rest. Buyer beware!

DRG: All I'll add to that is that if you do find a good one, for God's sake, hang on to it!"

[gafbass02]

I could tell you a very similar story about a few hi-fi brands, mission in particular! Where the reps have acknowledged the appaling sub standard quality and just shrugged it off. All sorts of stuff.

[hillbilly deluxe]

So, what you are saying is................























Core tone is everything ?

[JimBobTTD]

Nice article - thanks for the link.

[xilddx]

[quote name='hillbilly deluxe' post='737431' date='Feb 6 2010, 05:39 PM']So, what you are saying is................


Core tone is everything ? [/quote]
Ah, I anticipated this you see

An electric guitar is an entirely different beast and occupies so much more sonic space, core tone in a leccy guitar is infinitely more important than for a leccy bass.

[retroman]

Fascinating read, thanks for posting it up

Given my recent "issues" with a certain bass I can believe it.

My friend and I could probably consider ourselves Gibson enthusiasts, and my friend bought a "proper" Les Paul. It weighed a ton, and never did sound quite right. He wound up selling it, and is now thoroughly in love with Tokai Love Rock's. I've had a go on both his Love Rock's, and they are gorgeous, and certainly better than the Les Paul was

[Musicman69]

Mr X is spot on though IMO
The two guitarists in my band both play Les Paul Customs.. at approx €2300 each. One of the guys had to get his set-up (twice!) and fretwork done to get the tone right. The other guy has two Pauls and they both sound pretty bad to me, poor tone.. he doesnt realise they need work done. Pity cos hes a good player.
I should mail him that link as a hint!

[Buzz]

For devil's advocate, I'd just like to point out the interview was done in '02 and Mr X's experience is from when he worked at a music store, seemingly in the early 90's.

It's entirely possible that Gibson have improved QC and are more consistant since that time. Fender's managed it recently with the '08 (and later) models getting their praises sung for being the best USA Standards overall in a very long time.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Buzz

[Marvin]

I know nothing of these 6 stringed squeaky attention seeking devices. To me they are just unnatural. :snob:

[4000]

[quote name='silddx' post='737314' date='Feb 6 2010, 03:36 PM']This is a fascinating interview with a MrX who knows an awful lot of stuff about how to choose a Les Paul, how rare a good one is, and how poor Gibson QC can be.

I learned a lot about choosing a bass from this even though basses get no mention.

That's why I put it here instead of Off Topic, but Mods, please move it if you see fit.

[url="http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/new/node/240"]http://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/new/node/240[/url][/quote]

With one or two exceptions, that's how I always buy guitars or basses and always have done. I couple of years back I took my Epiphone LP Custom Plus into a shop with a view to moving it on to get a Gibson or top-end Tokai. I played all the ones in the shop, and although some of them played better than my Epi (it was never a player really), it sounded thicker, fatter and more complex than any of them. Sadly I had to sell it last year and I'm still looking for a valid replacement.

I have to say though, a bass or guitar that sounds wonderful in one situation can sound terrible in another (and will sound different with each different player) so the thing about sonics isn't completely cut and dried, especially given that different people like different tones anyway. Some people might actually need or prefer that huge bottom/strident top thing.

[Marvin]

Correct my possible stupidity and naivety, but can what a guitar (or bass for that matter) is finished in ie poly or nitro really make a noticeable difference to its final sound. I understand what MrX was saying about resisting absorption, but I really can't see it making a difference that would be noticeable.

I could be wrong.

[RhysP]

The worst guitar I ever owned was a Gibson Les Paul.
Bought it new (£599 - that'll tell you how long ago this was!) & within 6 months I'd had to have the pickups changed under warranty because the original ones packed in, and then the finish just began to peel away from the guitar.
An absolute piece of sh*t, yet somebody STILL bought it from me in that state because "it's a Gibson Les Paul, isn't it?"

[redstriper]

So the vast majority of guitar and bass players including most members of this forum have boring run of the mill fairly crappy instruments and don't even know it.
They might look pretty and cost a fortune, but they're still basically rubbish.

Wonder where that puts my two main gigging basses - both Tanglewoods, one free from freecycle and the other £23 delivered off ebay?

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='redstriper' post='737708' date='Feb 6 2010, 10:54 PM']Wonder where that puts my two main gigging basses - both Tanglewoods, one free from freecycle and the other £23 delivered off ebay?[/quote]

Basschat #1 and #2 Value For Money Award.

[4000]

[quote name='Buzz' post='737467' date='Feb 6 2010, 06:11 PM']For devil's advocate, I'd just like to point out the interview was done in '02 and Mr X's experience is from when he worked at a music store, seemingly in the early 90's.

It's entirely possible that Gibson have improved QC and are more consistant since that time. Fender's managed it recently with the '08 (and later) models getting their praises sung for being the best USA Standards overall in a very long time.[/quote]

+1. Most of the stuff I've read about Gibsons these days suggests the very same.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='redstriper' post='737708' date='Feb 6 2010, 10:54 PM']Wonder where that puts my two main gigging basses - both Tanglewoods, one free from freecycle and the other £23 delivered off ebay?[/quote]

About on a par with a poor Gibson I'd guess. Maybe a little ahead since CNC etc. has improved quite a bit for the far East manufacturers, whilst Gibson like doing stuff oldschool.

I had a Gibson, it was pretty far behind my Epiphone, bar the nicer hardware (except the output failed on the day I tried to sell it, never trusted Gibson since).

[Sibob]

[quote name='silddx' post='737440' date='Feb 6 2010, 05:53 PM']Ah, I anticipated this you see

An electric guitar is an entirely different beast and occupies so much more sonic space, core tone in a leccy guitar is infinitely more important than for a leccy bass.[/quote]



Si

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote]DRG: So at the time you worked in the store, seeing them every day, playing them every day — how many Les Pauls actually gave you a hard-on?[/quote]
Is that how guitarists talk to each other?

I reckon he might just be a crap player. If he was any good he would be able to get a decent sound out of any guitar. Sounds like there's possibly a certain amount of FUD in there to get people to buy instore rather than on that new-fangled interwebs thing.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Marvin' post='737494' date='Feb 6 2010, 06:38 PM']Correct my possible stupidity and naivety, but can what a guitar (or bass for that matter) is finished in ie poly or nitro really make a noticeable difference to its final sound. I understand what MrX was saying about resisting absorption, but I really can't see it making a difference that would be noticeable.

I could be wrong.[/quote]

It's bollocks. Pickups, strings, amp, any effects / overdrive, playing style, all make oceans more difference than even the timber & neck/body construction - never mind the varnish. I'm doubtful it [i]can[/i] make any tangible difference - consider the way string vibration is transferred through an LP: at one end, the bridge is mounted on metal posts which are sunk into the timber, making no significant contact with the finish. At the other they pass over a plastic nut which is glued to the bare wood at the end of the fretboard and then lacquered over.

And while we're at it, how does all that woody (and presumably nitro-cellulosey) resonance get back to the pickups to colour & enrich the sound? It's got a job. It has to make its way from the timber, up the 4 screws that secure the hollow plastic pickup rings, through the thin crappy plastic to the height adjusting screws, down said screws (taking care not to be dissipated by those bouncy springs) into the little pressed metal tabs on the pickup base. I wonder how much is actually left by the time it gets anywhere near the coils, 'cos it's almost as if the cunning designers had deliberately mounted the pups like that to isolate them from vibration, ain't it?

I'm afraid Mr X's whole spiel read like so much overly anal, self-elevated, I'm-a-guitar-expert-and-you-little-people-know-nothing guff*. Why not just shut up & play the damn guitar?

But then what do I know? I've spent 25+ years of my life playing cheap instruments in loud rock bands so my ears are f@cked anyway!


*Edit: I should add that I have no quibble with his comments on the variable quality control at Gibson - their dips & peaks in build and material standards are the stuff of legend, and it's wholly realistic to expect to find a lot of duffers. The answer to this problem? Simple - buy an Orville.

Jon.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Bassassin

[SS73]

In the 80's my bro and I went to buy him a Les Paul, we went through around 25-30 in london one day from high priced to new and low price to used or beaten, we played all acoustically, only two sounded good, one was a 62 standard and out of his price range and the other was a new early 80's standard but this one just didn't sound in tune, now I know why. One guitar did stick out though and this was an Explorer, it just rang out with smooth but crisp tone, it just was so superior to any LP he had played, so he bought it and its been his only guitar since..........Until last year his longing for a LP and some middle age haze set him on the hunt again, he tried many and almost gave up, but one day he eventually found it, it absolutely blew every single LP he had ever played, but I said 'its not a Gibson' ' Correct he said' ' Its a Hamer Studio Custom and its f@ckin awesome'.

I bought my 4001 this way, but that was really really difficult to find one that didn't sing.

Edited February 7, 2010 by SS73

[xilddx]

[quote name='Sibob' post='737738' date='Feb 6 2010, 11:33 PM']

Si[/quote]
Yeah, you're right, I was talking sh*te. I was just on my way out to a gig and my thought process was all manked up

I was in mind of using an amp with a guitar. I can make my Tele sound like my Steiny through my POD by messing about with the eg and gain. My Tele sound glorious, my Steiny Spirit has crap pickups and poor tone, but the POD pretty much neutralises the differences. If I really cared, i am sure I could make them sound exactly the same.

Sorry, I used to be a guitarist and was passionate about the intrinsic core tone of guitars with amps.