Faithless Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 So, I was shedding (practising) with metronome at the moment, when I remembered an after-gig situation, when very experienced keybordist, that I played with that night, came to me and drummer, and said: - "You know, (me, bassist), you [i]draw[/i], and you, mate (drummer), you [i]rush [/i]a hell lot",- He also added to me, that, "well, anyway, drawing is better than rushing.." Actually, it wasn't the first time, I was told I [i]draw[/i] - and I'm not talking about my timing, which is actually good, it's more about the [i]feel[/i], if it makes sense.. So, it got me thinking then - no one of us has a perfect[i] time-feel[/i], right, some of [i]draw[/i], some of [i]rush[/i], when playing. So, the big question - how do you think, if drawing is better than rushing, or vice versa? And, at the end, can one be [i]better [/i]than another.. Share your thoughts, Faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 (edited) If by 'drawing' you mean slowing down, then I totally disagree with your mate, slowing down kills the music in my view. Sags and drags and loses vibrancy, I would much prefer to play with a drummer that is on top of the beat. If a drummer rushes you can pin him down a bit, and it can make your feel sound fat and at the back of the beat. If a drummer slows down all that happens if you stick to it is you sound like you're playing everything in front which unless you're playing a driving swing feel is awful. The best of all is a shared sense of time with a little breathing but time keeping in my opinion is very very important. I did some sessions with just me and guitar last week where myself and the guitarist were so 'on' the time that without using a click or any stretching the engineer was able to comp several sections from different takes together to make one great take. We just played at the exact same tempo every take. Edited February 9, 2010 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Pfff... I just like to play with drummers who play in time.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithless Posted February 9, 2010 Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 (edited) Well, just to make you sure, I'm not pretending, it's better to draw (yes, to slow-down, in terms of [i]feel[/i], not timing!), I'm just interested in people thoughts on all this.. And, just to add, when I was practising, I put metronome on very slow tempo, around 30bpm, ( I play [u]eight [/u]16th notes during one beat), and, I was[i] in- time[/i], actually, but I kinda needed to catch for a metronome beat, which probably means, that I actually have a habit to draw.. Edited February 9, 2010 by Faithless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 As long as the groove is as fat as me I dont care who is doing what..... But if you must analyse it, I'm with Jake, I love a drummer who absolutely nails it to the floor. Then a bassist who sits right back sounds just so good. Unfortunately I tend to be right on it too, so if the drummer has any tendencies to race they come out when they play with me. I dont speed usually, except in the odd fill. Back in the day I was far more versatile, I'm just too lazy to put in the metronome time to get it back. What a waster eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Is this not refering to playing in front, on, or behind the beat rather than speeding up/slowing down? I did read a whole load of stuff once about which famous players did what but my sad old addled brain can't remember where it was. Quite a few discussions out there if you google "playing behind the beat". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Well... I prefer playing with a drummer who sits back on it, if that's what you mean... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 (edited) Sounds like pretentiousness to me Playing in front of or behind the beat should be a conscious choice shouldn't it? Edited February 9, 2010 by bigjohn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithless Posted February 9, 2010 Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 Maybe you're right, but, I thought, I said exact the same thing, just in other words.. Once again, this is not about the timing, it's about the feel.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I'm somewhat confused. I still don't really understand this 'rushing' and ''drawing'. Potentially it sounds that it could result in one terrible messy sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bass Doc Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I think it's fairly well known that the Fleetwood Mac rhythm section combines Mick Fleetwood playing slightly ahead of the beat and John McVie playing behind. May not be everyone's mug of cocoa, but I happen to rate them as a damn fine pairing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I alway prefer the backbeat.. so if the drummer pushes, I get less fun out of this. To me there are 3 places for the snare, for example. The front, right on or behind and the best grooves are behind IMV. If he used 'rushing' to refer to the drummer, I would assume he was talking about a timing issue though...but there are ways to address this...and it doesn't sound like he was being that diplomatic...??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Rushing and dragging are not the same as playing in front of and behind the beat. Rushing happens when the musician gets to a hard quick phrase and tries to jam it all in too quickly rather than taking their time over it. Dragging is more likely to happen when the phrase is hard rhythm wise and the player struggles to get it or is not listening to the rest of the band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 [quote name='The Bass Doc' post='740229' date='Feb 9 2010, 06:15 PM']I think it's fairly well known that the Fleetwood Mac rhythm section combines Mick Fleetwood playing slightly ahead of the beat and John McVie playing behind. May not be everyone's mug of cocoa, but I happen to rate them as a damn fine pairing.[/quote] Aye i think i read that in an interview with John McVie in the old Bassist magazine, i always thought they had a great feel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcro Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 [quote name='Faithless' post='740171' date='Feb 9 2010, 05:19 PM']So, I was shedding (practising) with metronome at the moment, when I remembered an after-gig situation, when very experienced keybordist, that I played with that night, came to me and drummer, and said: - "You know, (me, bassist), you [i]draw[/i], and you, mate (drummer), you [i]rush [/i]a hell lot",- He also added to me, that, "well, anyway, drawing is better than rushing.." Actually, it wasn't the first time, I was told I [i]draw[/i] - and I'm not talking about my timing, which is actually good, it's more about the [i]feel[/i], if it makes sense.. So, it got me thinking then - no one of us has a perfect[i] time-feel[/i], right, some of [i]draw[/i], some of [i]rush[/i], when playing. So, the big question - how do you think, if drawing is better than rushing, or vice versa? And, at the end, can one be [i]better [/i]than another..[/quote] I would interpret the drummer "rushing" as simply playing ahead of the beat. Perhaps he's trying too hard to drive the music on his own rather than letting the other musicians play their parts. "Drawing" could mean that he thinks you're being too expressive with your playing rather than simply hitting bass notes on the beat. A bit like you are hitting the note on the beat, but adding to the simple note by changes of volume, length or touch (trying to [i]draw[/i] a picture). That's why he thinks it's better than rushing. Balcro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chardbass Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I have played the same numbers in a show, to click, with different drummers and one guy felt slower than the other. My preference is for a drummer on it, with me trying to sit back a bit. Much easier to click otherwise things can get messy, or verrrryyy sloooowwww. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Can't say I've ever heard of the phrase "drawing" used in this context, but as others have pointed out, the opposite to rushing is usually dragging. As Tim says, this is not the same as "feel" or playing behind/in front of the beat - it refers to a problem with keeping good time. In my experience, many drummers have a problem with dragging. It is absolutely ruinous for a song when they do this; the feel goes, and the most lively song can end up as a dirge. It needn't just be on ballads, for example, if a drummer attempts to overegg the behind the beat pudding in a disco song, the result will be music that is boring and lacks the thing that makes people want to dance. The song will appear to go on forever, and as a bass player it'll be all you can do just to keep the tempo correct. If left unchecked, they will tend to slow down over time. I'd rather have a rushing drummer than a dragging drummer, within reason - at least things retain some sense of going somewhere, and it is not always unnatural for songs to speed up a little as they progress. Slowing down is definitely a no-no though. To get a different perspective, I've asked other musicians what they think of bass players, and what the common problems with them are. One that has come up is the "passenger bass player", who essentially contributes nothing to the feel or presence of the music. This is apparently caused by a similar (although usually not quite as bad) problem with time as the dragging drummer. Essentially, the bass player is "playing along" rather than creating a pulse. In other words, mostly harmless, but not really what you'd want. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman69 Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Spot on there! The drums are dominant and if theyre being played by an incompetent "drum-kit owner" (as opposed to a real drummer!) its just going to cause confusion instead of fusion! Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golchen Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I've never heard of drawing before?? (In a musical context) I know so little about playing bass with others! Really must try it one day ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 [quote name='Mykesbass' post='740191' date='Feb 9 2010, 05:41 PM']Is this not refering to playing in front, on, or behind the beat rather than speeding up/slowing down?[/quote] That's how I read it. In my band the drummer and I tend to play ahead of the beat, the keys player tends to play behind the beat and the guitarist always plays bang on. Ahead gives it a bit of snap. Behind settles the whole thing down. You can have it sounding good with some guys playing ahead and others behind. Context, taste and control are everything though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Ok, to re-iterate: Playing behind or ahead of the beat, as you say, are subtle, consistent rhythmic devices that affect the feel of a tune sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, depending on how appropriately they are applied. If done well - and it is a *lot* harder to do this than many people think - they can improve a piece. Rushing or dragging is a problem with a musician's timing, and I have yet to find any situation where it has a positive effect. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I agree... I think this 'experienced' keyboard player is getting confused. He means a feel thing, but talks about timing...?????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 [quote name='endorka' post='740700' date='Feb 10 2010, 10:17 AM']Ok, to re-iterate: Playing behind or ahead of the beat, as you say, are subtle, consistent rhythmic devices that affect the feel of a tune sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, depending on how appropriately they are applied. If done well - and it is a *lot* harder to do this than many people think - they can improve a piece. Rushing or dragging is a problem with a musician's timing, and I have yet to find any situation where it has a positive effect. Jennifer[/quote] As Jennifer's explanation is the only one I've understood in this thread, I thoroughly agree with her. I also agree that playing off the beat is a lot a harder than many think. What often happens is you get 'musicians' boasting that they play off the beat when in actual fact they are simply playing out of time. I play off the beat all the time, others say I can't keep time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 [quote name='endorka' post='740700' date='Feb 10 2010, 10:17 AM']Rushing or dragging is a problem with a musician's timing, and I have yet to find any situation where it has a positive effect.[/quote] [quote name='JTUK' post='740714' date='Feb 10 2010, 10:26 AM']I agree... I think this 'experienced' keyboard player is getting confused. He means a feel thing, but talks about timing...??????????[/quote] Just to clarify, I agree with Jennifer and JTUK. I always understood rushing/dragging to be terms to describe sloppy time but from the first post I thought that the keyboard player was trying to describe feel. I'm sure he got the terms wrong but I thought I'd try to help the OP by discussing feel as opposed to timing. Speeding up and slowing down - unplanned, inconsistently and not together - is a major problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 [quote name='The Funk' post='740769' date='Feb 10 2010, 11:07 AM']Speeding up and slowing down - unplanned, inconsistently and not together - is a major problem.[/quote] You've heard my playing then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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