70's Jazz Bass

[Sibob]

[quote name='lemmywinks' post='748333' date='Feb 17 2010, 12:46 PM']then if it isn't the bass the serial number makes it out to be file a "significantly not as described" claim on eBay.[/quote]

From the ebay listing:

"NOT ACCEPT RETURNS AS I DONT KNOW WHAT TYPE THIS IS SO I AM NOT SELLING IT AS SOMETHING IN PARTICULAR"

Hmmmm
Si

[bigjohn]

[quote name='Sibob' post='748499' date='Feb 17 2010, 02:34 PM']From the ebay listing:

"NOT ACCEPT RETURNS AS I DONT KNOW WHAT TYPE THIS IS SO I AM NOT SELLING IT AS SOMETHING IN PARTICULAR"

Hmmmm
Si[/quote]


I agree with the whole binding contract thing I'm afraid. It was won - you've got to pay unless you can get the seller to agree to cancel the whole thing. However I do think Paypal will refund - and if he's got any sense, he'll have realised that too. His hope must have been that someone would buy it as a genuine Fender and not question it's authenticity.

Despite his arse covering as above, he still listed the bass as "FENDER JAZZ BASS" - which is untrue. He can't say "NOT ACCEPT RETURNS AS I DONT KNOW WHAT TYPE THIS IS" when he's advertised it as "FENDER" when it quite clearly isn't.

If he wanted to advertise it as a "FENDER JAZZ BASS" he should have either had it's Fender authenticity checked beforehand, or be ready to clarify if the authenticity is called in question. Otherwise at best he's advertising falsely, or at worst he's selling counterfeit goods. If he won't give a refund on the grounds that he's complicit in either, then ignorance is no defence.


Really though Gareth. Agreeing to spend £700 on a bass which you've not seen and on the basis of 3 crap photos and someone saying they don't know what it is?

Edited February 17, 2010 by bigjohn

[lemmywinks]

Either way he is sellig a counterfeit item, whether he knows it or not. Surely that must contravene some eBay rules?

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='lemmywinks' post='748620' date='Feb 17 2010, 04:26 PM']Either way he is sellig a counterfeit item, whether he knows it or not. Surely that must contravene some eBay rules?[/quote]

eBay are sh1t-hot on counterfeit. However... our buyer would need to have paid for the item, received it THEN go through the process of proving what it is or isn't!

[Bassassin]

Ebay & PayPal are both very weighted in the favour of the buyer - if for some reason you decide it's not what you want (perhaps you don't really like the colour) they will make the seller refund you.

Just to make sure, stamp on the bass until the neck snaps (or do something to damage it), then send it back to him before you contact either the seller or Ebay. You then insist that this was the condition it arrived in, and you want a refund. This technique worked a treat for a "customer" who bought a JapCrap LP copy from me a while ago. He also lied about the condition of the instrument, as well as doing deliberate damage. I had no option but to refund him - and still got negative feedback.

So I wouldn't worry.

Jon.

[karlfer]

If the seller had had the decency to reply to my emails, and allowed me to go and see it, I would have been in for it as well.
Despite thinking it may have been a Mex re-issue, the lack of bullet truss rod end just got me thinking it may be real despite seemingly almost new nick.
It also got me to thinking it may be something like an SX with a new decal?
I erred on the side of doubt simply because he didn't reply.
It is such a shame that someone may have spent £700 and been kippered, but the seller really seems to have been ensuring he could claim,"didn't know guv".
Thank God Bass Chat is often influential with it's forumites when these potentially contentious basses come up on Evil Bay.

[Moos3h]

To be honest, a close up of the headstock will probably reveal all we need to know.

From that distance, I'm thinking it looks a lot like a 70's Classic (Mexican) with an aftermarket scratchplate and bridge cover. But with photos like that, it could be anything....

[Shambo]

[quote name='gareth' post='749283' date='Feb 18 2010, 08:52 AM']Thanks for all your comments

I am awaiting a reply to my email from the seller and won't be doing anything further until this is received.[/quote]
Q. Who wouldn't email a few snaps from a camera phone for £700?
A. Only a scammer.

Though not strictly legal, I think your strategy of not paying 'till you see some more pictures is a sound one. If the seller wants their money, they'll make the effort to send them and if not, then there's definately something fishy going on. A 'non paying' strike on ebay's got to be better than paying for a 'ringer' and all the nonsense that entails.

Mainly though, I hope they do send you the photo's and that this proves the guitar to be a real. Like I said in my OP this guitar caught my eye because, if you swapped the scratchpate for a black one, it looks just like one I sold to Johnny Roadhouse in Manchester around 15 years ago. Something I've always regretted because, (although the years may be making me nostalgic), it was the nicest sounding and easiest playing jazzes I've ever laid hands on, and the black body and rosewood board/blocks & binding combination from this era is cool as f*ck, and rare as rocking horse sh*t.

[pieterv]

Interesting case. I have heard it said more than once that Ebay/Paypal is weighted in favour of the buyer.

I had the following expereicne buying a supposed USA Fender Jazz. When I got it it sounded awful. Taking it apart showed tiny pots (definitely not the type fitted by Fender) and a neck pocket date that didn't match the neck serial.

When I contacted the seller he seemed genuinly shocked and asked for photos to back up my claims, which I sent him. He handled it like a gentleman and offered a refund on return of the bass, which I received. So, honest guy. He said he bought it years ago from a respected local music store!

He did sent me a copy of an email he received from Paypal asking for advice. They said it was basically up to him if he wanted to refund or not (despite pretty strong evidence on my part that this was a fake with a genuione Fender neck).

So, things worked out OK for me due to an honest and fair seller, but it made me doubt Paypal's "buyer-bias" a bit.

Anyone got further experience with this? Bassassin's experience is quite shocking, extreme buyer support! You would have expected them to look into this a bit more (like damaged packaging, etc). But any buyers who haven't received support?

Pieter

Edited February 18, 2010 by pieterv

[Bassassin]

[quote name='pieterv' post='750022' date='Feb 18 2010, 05:52 PM']He did sent me a copy of an email he received from Paypal asking for advice. They said it was basically up to him if he wanted to refund or not (despite pretty strong evidence on my part that this was a fake with a genuione Fender neck).

So, things worked out OK for me due to an honest and fair seller, but it made me doubt Paypal's "buyer-bias" a bit.

Pieter[/quote]
It's possible that US Ebay has different regulations than UK - it certainly does in many other areas, particularly the fee structure.

J.

[pieterv]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='750077' date='Feb 18 2010, 06:51 PM']It's possible that US Ebay has different regulations than UK - it certainly does in many other areas, particularly the fee structure.

J.[/quote]

Well, I dealt with Ebay UK (sorry, maybe I was a bit unclear. With USA I meant the bass was supposed to be an American Fender).

Pieter

[warwickhunt]

re. paypal/eBay supporting buyers in favour of sellers.

There was a documented case on this forum during the latter part of last year with a dispute over a basses authenticity; eBay found in the buyer's favour (a registered BCer) and refunded him the money... he also kept the bass with no recriminations from eBay or PayPal! That sounds far fetched and I struggled to believe it but on a MUCH smaller scale I had a similar experience very recently when I purchased a £10 vinyl LP and reported to eBay that it was scratched despite the fact it was described as mint (even had a hole in the middle - sad English joke for our American cousin). eBay quickly found in my favour and refunded me; not once was I asked to return the LP and it still sits here waiting for the seller to contact me!

Edited February 19, 2010 by warwickhunt

[alanbass1]

Not sure there could be a case in this instance. The seller states it's a Fender Jazz bass which is what is on the headstock so that is a reasonable statement to make. The seller also clearly says he knows nothing about guitars and that he does not know what type of Fender it is, also that he only paid three pounds for it. At no time has he said it is an early 70's all original Fender. Looking at the bass it cannot be all original purely based on the neck plate and the scratchplate being from different era's. So, if he is a scammer he is only playing off the greed of others looking to get a cut bargain basement early 70's Jazz Bass. He certainly hasn't over sold the bass for something that it is not (or unlikely not to be).

It may very well be a nice bass with a number of replacement parts. I saw it as I'm on the lookout for a nice 60's/early 70's jazz but I didn't bid on it as it is obvious to me that this is not all original and likely to be a cheap mex bass with a few parts added. So, why should there be a refund in this specific case?

Edited February 19, 2010 by alanbass1

[ThomBassmonkey]

The seller says he paid three hundred pounds for it, not three.

To be fair, he says it's a fender bass with that number on the metal plate on the back.

If it's a no-name copy, then you'll have a case because it's not a fender bass.

If it's a knackered MIM fender from 10 years ago, so long as it has the backplate that he says, then the sale's accurate.

As has been said though, when you bidded, you entered a contract. You can't just decide that you don't trust him after you've already agreed to buy it.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='alanbass1' post='751443' date='Feb 19 2010, 10:52 PM']Not sure there could be a case in this instance....[/quote]

Agreed. As stated much earlier the; the seller well and truly covered his backside by stating he had no idea about what the bass 'might' or 'might not' be, other than a Fender with said neck plate. I hope gareth has learned some sense from this experience (along with a few others) though technically he would be in breach of contract if he didn't buy it... maybe a bit more forethought next time!

[noelk27]

[quote name='lemmywinks' post='748333' date='Feb 17 2010, 12:46 PM']The seller seems to have covered his back pretty well in the listing, the only thing he gives is the serial number ... [I]f it isn't the bass the serial number makes it out to be file a "significantly not as described" claim on eBay. ... Thing is, does mentioning the serial count as specifying what model/year the bass is?[/quote]

Yes. If the serial number does not relate to the specific instrument then the seller is in material breach of an essential term of the contract of sale. If in doubt about this, taking motorvehicles, an example mentioned elsewhere in the thread, assume the VIN was incorrect for a vehicle being auctioned, any buyer would have an absolute right of rejection.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='noelk27' post='751518' date='Feb 20 2010, 12:45 AM']Yes. If the serial number does not relate to the specific instrument then the seller is in material breach of an essential term of the contract of sale. If in doubt about this, taking motorvehicles, an example mentioned elsewhere in the thread, assume the VIN was incorrect for a vehicle being auctioned, any buyer would have an absolute right of rejection.[/quote]

The seller hasn't explicitly said that that's the instrument's serial number, only that it's on the plate on the back so is that still relevant?

It's little bits like the wording of that that make me suspicious on things like this. The seller obviously realises that the serial number is important when it's potentially an old bass, but he's very carefully worded it in a way that only implies (rather than states) that that's the serial number that belongs with the bass. The only thing that he could really be brought up on is whether or not it's a fender from what I can tell. Everything else is very carefully worded so that as long as it looks like the photos, it's a genuine Fender and that really is the number on the neck plate (regardless of whether or not it's the right neck plate for the bass), anything else goes.

I'm no legal expert though so I could be very wide of the mark.

If possible (and there's someone you trust near the seller), I'd get someone to go pick it up then post it on to you if the ad isn't accurate.

Edited February 20, 2010 by ThomBassmonkey

[noelk27]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='751521' date='Feb 20 2010, 12:56 AM']The seller hasn't explicitly said ...[/quote]

Yes. It doesn't make any substantive difference whether his statement is implicit or explicit, by including a serial number in the description that becomes an essential of the item description, irrespective of his knowledge or familiarity with what he is selling, irrespective of any ambiguity on his part, he is in material breach of an essential of the stated item description if that serial number does not relate to that instrument.

[Maverick]

[quote name='noelk27' post='751518' date='Feb 20 2010, 12:45 AM']Yes. If the serial number does not relate to the specific instrument then the seller is in material breach of an essential term of the contract of sale. If in doubt about this, taking motorvehicles, an example mentioned elsewhere in the thread, assume the VIN was incorrect for a vehicle being auctioned, any buyer would have an absolute right of rejection.[/quote]

This is true, however again it comes back to the seller being a tricky bugger and not actually stating that it was the serial number, just the number on the neck plate.

Perhaps more crucially though, the waters become very muddy when the buyer is actually aware that the seller may be lying. I think once you get into this realm, the law takes a much more caveat emptor approach to things than when the buyer is unwittingly misled by the seller.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Maverick

[johnny_frog]

don't the distance selling regulations apply?

you have a 7 day cooling off period with anything bought in this way...

[url="http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base/legal/distance-selling-regulations/"]http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources...ng-regulations/[/url]

[Maverick]

[quote name='johnny_frog' post='751600' date='Feb 20 2010, 09:54 AM']don't the distance selling regulations apply?

you have a 7 day cooling off period with anything bought in this way...

[url="http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base/legal/distance-selling-regulations/"]http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources...ng-regulations/[/url][/quote]

I think they only apply when it's a commercial seller as apposed to a private individual, most consumer protection law only applies in this context - could be wrong though.

[discreet]

[quote name='johnny_frog' post='751600' date='Feb 20 2010, 09:54 AM']don't the distance selling regulations apply?[/quote]

Not to a Private Seller running a Bid Auction.

Distance Selling Regulations only apply to BINs (Buy-It-Now) sales, not Bid Auction sales.

Edited February 20, 2010 by discreet

[Maverick]

[quote name='discreet' post='751658' date='Feb 20 2010, 11:14 AM']Not to a Private Seller running a Bid Auction.

Distance Selling Regulations only apply to BINs (Buy-It-Now) sales, not Bid Auction sales.[/quote]

Hmm, that's interesting - legally speaking I don't think there's any great distinction really (in the case of a private seller), but I suppose eBay can make that their policy if they wish.

I suppose it may be justifiable that BINs are closer to business sales than simple auctions, and also the seller is implying that his item is worth the BIN price which may not be the case. And also I suppose it stops 'business' sellers who make a lot of BIN sales wriggling out of the DSRs by claiming to be selling as private individuals.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Maverick

[discreet]

[quote name='Maverick' post='751662' date='Feb 20 2010, 11:27 AM']I suppose eBay can make that their policy if they wish.[/quote]

They can, and do!

[url="http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/business.html"]http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/business.html[/url]

[Maverick]

[quote name='discreet' post='751667' date='Feb 20 2010, 11:33 AM']They can, and do!

[url="http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/business.html"]http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/business.html[/url][/quote]


Sorry, I think I got the wrong jist of your first post, DSRs dont apply to private sellers selling by BINs thought right?