Left hand practice

[essexbasscat]

Hi folks

I posted this one up to clear up a discussion on another thread and I didn't want to hijack another topic so.....

It did leave me very curious about something though. I'd appreciate the forum's views on this one please.




Q. do you think one finger per fret is valid advice ? Up 'till now, I saw it as digit training and a method of increasing the span of the left hand to cope with the lower end fret spacing.

I havn't researched it personally, but relied instead on the advice of the 'experts'.

what do you think folks ?



I've added below the discussion that prompted this question for context (sorry for the read to get to the point by the way. I'll say THANK YOU here for those that follow it through)



[u]My erroneous contribution to the other thread[/u]


practice one finger per fret

Hold one finger per fret then try variations of:

1, 2,3,4

1,3,2,4

1,4,2,3,

etc

in one direction, then the reverse order

better still, get hold of a copy of Serious Electric Bass by Joel D Bartolo

Hope that helps a little

T



that looks like left hand stuff to me




[u]and then the reply[/u]


Not only is it left hand stuff, but i would add that it is bad advice. If your hands are large enough to facilitate 1 finger per fret, then great, but otherwise, you run the risk of causing yourself permanent injury for no good reason. Double bass players don't force themselves to play one finger per fret/note.

Be careful with your fingernails. Keep them quite short, but not too short - they protect your fingers (so speaks someone currently unable to play because of a finger infection caused partly by having nails too short.




[u]I replied[/u]

I came back to this thread to edit that you should start one finger per fret up the board nr. the 12th fret to get the patterns, before decending towards the nut to gain the reach. I realised the error too late and therefore deleted the post.

However, the advice I left is from the book Serious Electric Bass by Joel D Bartolo. Jaco gives the same advice in his tuitional video. I havn't researched it beyond that point, so I can't say the advice is robustly supported by evidence.

Since you claim that permanent damage will occur if this advice is followed, I''d be interested to hear your views around stretching the left hand to span the lower frets.

Sorry about the thread hijack for the other hand folks. I did feel a certain justification for a reply to that post however.

Love and peas

T


This isn't an attempt to come out on top from a discussion (promise bassbloke !) but more a 'poll' I hope

What do you all think ?


T

Edited February 14, 2010 by essexbasscat

[endorka]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='744569' date='Feb 14 2010, 09:42 AM']Q. do you think one finger per fret is valid advice ? I havn't researched it personally, but relied instead on the advice of the 'experts'.

What do you think ?[/quote]

It depends!

I have found that advice to play with 1fpf is usually given by those that can use this system with no difficulties, and this makes sense - it is a good system if it can be used easily.

However, in my teaching experience, I have found that most people do not belong to this camp. People seem to fall into roughly 3 categories;

1) They can use 1fpf no difficulties, without thinking. This ability, while related to hand size or finger length, can also be related to hand shape.

2) They are using 1fpf with some problems - occasional misfrets, fingers way too far behind the fret, inconsistent fingering, awkward hand shape, getting tired quickly, etc. This is usally due to the hand being slightly too small, or similar, and can be addressed by using a slight pivot on the thumb to make up for this.

3) Those who are attempting to use 1fpf with serious problems - essentially, the hand is far too small, and the pivot required to make it work is going to be as large as an entire fret shift, in which case they are probably as well using the Simandl or 1-2-4 fingering approach, adapted to the bass guitar with full thumb pivot.

As I previously mentioned, most people belong to groups (2) and (3). Stretching exercises will only take you so far, and overuse of this when innapropriate for the hand shape can lead to injury.

I initially tried to use 1fpf when starting to play bass guitar, but it caused pain, so trained myself to use 1-2-4. Last year I was playing some basslines (from the musical "Rent" :-) that definitely benefitted from the 1fpf approach ("La vie Boheme" was one), and found that by using the pivot on thumb approach I was able to do so, for short periods of time.

I asked for advice on this from a wiser bass sage, my question: should I try to use 1fpf all the time? His reply: use it only when the bassline indicates. There are many basslines where it does not - "box" type lines being an example that readily lead themselves to 1-2-4.

Of course, when one is playing in the higher registers of the instrument, 1fpf is fine, and indeed often necessary.

Jennifer

[essexbasscat]

thank you for that thoughtful reply Jennifer

I'm now going to find out what the SIMANDL approach is

T

[endorka]

Simandl:

[indent]Franz Simandl (August 1, 1840 - December 15, 1912) was a double-bassist and pedagogue who is remembered most for his New Method for the Double Bass, 30 Studies, and more advanced collection of studies, Gradus ad Parnassum. All three of these works are still in use today and are available in a number of competing critical editions.

His approach uses the first, second, and fourth fingers of the left hand (actually, the third and fourth operating together as one digit) for stopping the strings on the lower register of the instrument and divides the fingerboard into various positions.[/indent]

From [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?act=Post&CODE=02&f=31&t=77300&qpid=744609"]Wikipedia[/url] :-)

Jennifer

[TKenrick]

In my experience, the use of the 1fpf system (particularly in the form of those '1234' exercises) in the lower register of the bass stems from guitar techniques/exercises. Due to the smaller scale length of the guitar, 1fpf can be used all over the neck without causing any physical problems, and is undoubtedly a highly efficient and logical system in many playing situations. Unfortunately this doesn't really work on bass due to the increased scale length. Although my hands are large enough to accommodate the use of 1fpf from the first fret, I find that the potential benefits are outweighed by increased fatigue, unnatural stretching and the risk of injury.

Try this:

- Let your left hand/arm relax completely. Notice how the fingers of your left hand naturally curve over towards the palm and there's a gap between fingers and thumb that's conveniently about the same width of the neck of a bass.

- Without changing this natural hand position, bring your left hand up to the bass so that your first finger is at the first fret. Notice that the natural hand span in this position is 3 frets.

- Keep your left hand completely relaxed and bring it up the neck to roughly the 7th/8th fret. Notice how the natural hand span here is 4 frets (this may vary according to hand size - some may have a 4-fret span at the 5th fret, others at the 10th)


I use this method to help decide the point at which I (or those that I teach) should use 1fpf, as it allows me to see where on the instrument it will work from a [i][/i]physical[i][/i] perspective.

I can't recommend the Simandl books enough. Working with the first Simandl book did more for my tone and articulation than anything else I've ever practiced, and I believe that the 1-2-4 fingering system presented in the book is the best way of navigating the bass in the lower register.

I do still use 1fpf exercises, but only in the upper register of the bass where it makes physical sense. There's a book called 'Bass Fitness' by Josquin Des Pres that has lots of great exercises that help finger independence, but unfortunately all of the exercises are presented starting from the first fret... I give these exercises to students, but starting at the 12th fret so they can get the benefit without putting their hands in unnatural and potentially damaging positions.


Apologies for the long-winded reply, hopefully this is helpful!


Tom

[EssentialTension]

I can use 1fpf in the lower positions if I have to but I'm a much better and less stressed player when I use Simandl. In higher positions I'll move to 1fpf. The changeover region will vary but usually somewhere between frets 3 & 7 depending on the line being played. I do much the same on a fretless too.

I guess if your hand and fingers were the appropriate length and shape then 1fpf all over could be fine but it won't be fine for everyone.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Just started another thread on this without looking. My bad. Anyway, I'll post here what I posted there (in response to the other thread).

Macmellus, generally I just teach fingering using scales. Students get a lashing if they use the wrong fingers. wink.gif I'll have a play with your suggestion next time I'm on my bass though and see how it feels. Another one I use (for both hands) is (as intervals, I start off higher up the fret[board]) 1, 2, minor 3, 4 and back down (so for example C, D, D#, F, D#, D, C.) Then play about with speed, get them doing it fast enough (once they've got it slowly of course) and there's no real option than use all four fingers because of the jump up from D to F. Same thing with the major scale, 1st to 4th and they have to use 4th finger to 1st for the movement from 2nd to 3rd.

Faithless, good point. It's something that a LOT of people do because they think Blink-182 (and other bands) are doing it right. It may not look as cool, but at least you don't have to stop playing after 15 minutes because you have RSI. Plus the extra reach definitely helps. Another thing I see a lot in relation to positioning is elbows stuck into the sides when sat down.
__

endorka, are you talking about reach or strength? Both can be problems in terms of 1fpf but a strength issue can be resolved with enough (gentle) practice IME. If the problems stretching then generally some improvement can be made but it's far more limiting depending on (as you say) how the player's hand is built.

Edited February 14, 2010 by ThomBassmonkey

[macmellus]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='744951' date='Feb 14 2010, 04:37 PM']Macmellus, generally I just teach fingering using scales. Students get a lashing if they use the wrong fingers. wink.gif I'll have a play with your suggestion next time I'm on my bass though and see how it feels. Another one I use (for both hands) is (as intervals, I start off higher up the fret) 1, 2, minor 3, 4 and back down (so for example C, D, D#, F, D#, D, C.) Then play about with speed, get them doing it fast enough (once they've got it slowly of course) and there's no real option than use all four fingers because of the jump up from D to F. Same thing with the major scale, 1st to 4th and they have to use 4th finger to 1st for the movement from 2nd to 3rd.[/quote]
Don't really want to get bogged down here, but my example was for right hand technique, not left. Also your exercise isn't very clear. What do you mean by 'as intervals' and 'higher up the fret'? Are you only using one string? Either way, whether on one or two strings I'm not using all my fingers. What is the actual sequence of notes?
Also, what do you mean by 'wrong fingers'?

[Doddy]

I've used the Simandl method for a long time in the lower positions. I can use one finger per fret
over the whole board,but prefer to use 1-2-4 in the lower positions (upto the 5th fret) as it puts less strain on my hand.
As Jennifer said,there are lines-like the 'box' pattern-which lend themselves to using a 1-2-4 fingering.It
is not essential to keep strict fingering at all times.
Look at a player like Tom Kennedy-he's got a great left hand technique with a finger per fret method,yet when he's
reading a chart in lower positions he naturally reverts to a 1-2-4 fingering.

There is no point in forcing a finger per fret method-if it causes your hand to ache,don't do it. Use the Simandl
style and use your thumb to pivot.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='macmellus' post='744963' date='Feb 14 2010, 04:54 PM']Don't really want to get bogged down here, but my example was for right hand technique, not left. Also your exercise isn't very clear. What do you mean by 'as intervals' and 'higher up the fret'? Are you only using one string? Either way, whether on one or two strings I'm not using all my fingers. What is the actual sequence of notes?
Also, what do you mean by 'wrong fingers'?[/quote]

Ah ok sorry, I thought you were talking about left hand and I meant fretboard (just missed off the board).

I'm basically talking about the first four notes of a minor (in the example) and major scales. So the example in C would be:

[code]-------------
-------3-----
-3-5-6---6-5-
-------------[/code]

repeated. It's an easy enough riff for people to learn and start to get a bit faster but after a certain point you need to use first, ring and little finger or it's impossible to reach from the D# to the F smoothly. Hope that explains it a bit better.

[Marvin]

Doddy and Jennifer's contributions have given me hope (ok a bit overstating it but you get the idea )
1pf is always held up as the correct way to play, and is something I simply cannot do in the lower frets, I am not joking it kills my hand.
Brilliant thread.

[XB26354]

I agree with what Jennifer and Paul have said.
There is no single guide as to where you should switch from 1FPF to Simandl 1, as it depends on the size and shape of your hands, the length of your fingers, how developed the tendons are in the hand, what bass you play, how wide the neck is, how low the action is etc.

I can play all over the neck of a 6-string with 35" scale using 1FPF for moderate periods without much ache, however I wouldn't recommend it (and don't do it) for extended periods as it will cause hand injuries for many bass players. The general guide is that somewhere between the 5th and 7th frets (and lower) is the most relevant place to shift to Simandl. The best training guide out there is Standing in the Shadows of Motown as the bulk of Jamerson's lines use Simandl. "Darling Dear" comes to mind as a great track that uses the "box" shape.

I would, however, advocate small amounts practice using 1FPF (ie not for 10 minutes continuously!) in the lower positions, just because some phrases just don't sit using Simandl. If you practice 1FPF ideas (like scale or chord tone exercises) around the cycle of fourths, with the idea always starting on the same string for each key centre, then you'll jump in and out of the lower register without unduly stressing your hand. Chord Studies for Electric Bass by Rich Appleman and Josef Viola (Berklee Press) has some killer lower-register exercises that are great for developing this area - but they will make your hands ache if you play them too much!
No pain, no gain definitely does not apply when playing a musical instrument - if your hands are hurting, stop playing. Er, unless you're playing at a gig or a recording session, otherwise you might get the sack

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='XB26354' post='746407' date='Feb 15 2010, 07:57 PM']I can play all over the neck of a 6-string with 35" scale using 1FPF for moderate periods without much ache, however I wouldn't recommend it (and don't do it) for extended periods as it will cause hand injuries for many bass players. The general guide is that somewhere between the 5th and 7th frets (and lower) is the most relevant place to shift to Simandl. The best training guide out there is Standing in the Shadows of Motown as the bulk of Jamerson's lines use Simandl. "Darling Dear" comes to mind as a great track that uses the "box" shape.

No pain, no gain definitely does not apply when playing a musical instrument - if your hands are hurting, stop playing. Er, unless you're playing at a gig or a recording session, otherwise you might get the sack [/quote]

I play 1fpf on my 6 string for extended periods through gigs or practices. I play originals though so I have wiggle room if I can feel my wrist stretching. There's very few reasons why 1fpf is 100% required with no workaround, usually there's a different string or a small run you can use to break up the stretching. There's only maybe been one or two songs I've played where I've just had to endure for a whole section (and I've practiced those songs to death, so I'm capable of doing it, I just need to take it easy for the section after or have a short rest at practices). Also raising up my bass helps a hell of a lot with it since my wrist's in a far less awkward position.

You're right about taking rests in general if you're hurting your hands (especially your wrists) while playing. It's always worth trying and also trying to look at your technique and see if there's anything you could do to improve it and help with your playing. If you're not careful, RSI can permanently stop you playing an instrument when raising your bass by a couple of inches could've prevented you even having it.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='744951' date='Feb 14 2010, 04:37 PM']Another one I use (for both hands) is (as intervals, I start off higher up the fret[board]) 1, 2, minor 3, 4 and back down (so for example C, D, D#, F, D#, D, C.)[/quote]
<pedant>
If the root is C, then the minor 3rd is Eb, not D#. I know they're enharmonic equivalents, so they sound the same, but they perform different functions within the scale. "C, D, D#, F" is part of no scale I've ever seen.

D# would be a sharpened second (or usually a sharpened ninth in a chord symbol), and you'd usually see it in fruity little numbers like C7#9 (the "Hendrix chord") where it coexists with the major 3rd, causing a lovely little tense clash.
</pedant>

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='746809' date='Feb 16 2010, 07:04 AM']<pedant>
If the root is C, then the minor 3rd is Eb, not D#. I know they're enharmonic equivalents, so they sound the same, but they perform different functions within the scale. "C, D, D#, F" is part of no scale I've ever seen.

D# would be a sharpened second (or usually a sharpened ninth in a chord symbol), and you'd usually see it in fruity little numbers like C7#9 (the "Hendrix chord") where it coexists with the major 3rd, causing a lovely little tense clash.
</pedant>[/quote]
Bugger

My version of theory is all based on the neck. I can't read music (used to be able to years ago but it's all gone since then) so I just kinda make it up as I go along.

Edited February 16, 2010 by ThomBassmonkey

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='746890' date='Feb 16 2010, 09:30 AM']I can't read music[/quote]
I'm just going to pre-empt Bilbo...

LEARNTOREADMUSICLEARNTOREADMUSICLEARNTOREADMUSIC...

[Bilbo]

I started with the 1fpf method way back when but, in all honesty, can count the number of times when it has been absolutely necessary to execute a musical passage on the fingers of one hand (using 1fpf ). It is a useful perspective to have I suppose but, as an absolute, it is just not that important. The question should always be, can you get to the next note? If you can, in a musical and congruent way, then you can use whatever fingering method you like. I have naturally evolved into using the Simandl method and now I am looking at the double bass, can see why double bass players prefer it. The additional potential gained by developing the 1fpf stretch on an electric is such a tiny, tiny part of the instruments potential, I just wouldn't get hung up about it.

[thunderbird13]

I wish I had been told this when I started off, I spent years forcing myself to play 1fpf with only frustration as my reward - just think where I would be if I'd heard of simandhi before

One question though - why is it the 1st 2nd and 4th fingers can you not just use 1,2 and 3 with the 4th being held out of the way , like when you drink a cup of tea

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='746941' date='Feb 16 2010, 10:14 AM']One question though - why is it the 1st 2nd and 4th fingers can you not just use 1,2 and 3 with the 4th being held out of the way , like when you drink a cup of tea[/quote]
The hand's much less stretched and strained with 1-2-4 than with 1-2-3. On a 34" scale, frets 1 and 3 are 8.9 cm apart (that's 3.5 inches, you ol' dinosaurs ). That's quite a stretch for me with fingers 1 and 3; 1 and 4 is no problem at all. It's that simple.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that Jaco played 1-2-4 up to 4th position and then OFPF from 5th position up, and he did alright for himself, didn't he? Well, for a while at least...

[Bilbo]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='746941' date='Feb 16 2010, 10:14 AM']One question though - why is it the 1st 2nd and 4th fingers can you not just use 1,2 and 3 with the 4th being held out of the way , like when you drink a cup of tea[/quote]

Nothing clever about it. The pinkie just has a bigger reach.

Also, the third finger is dependent upon the second for its muscle power and is, thus, less flexible. If you place your hand flat on a tale then curl your middle (longest) finger underneath your palm, you cannot move the third independently as teh muscle is locked into the finger being restrained.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='746954' date='Feb 16 2010, 10:27 AM']Also, the third finger is dependent upon the second for its muscle power and is, thus, less flexible. If you place your hand flat on a tale then curl your middle (longest) finger underneath your palm, you cannot move the third independently as teh muscle is locked into the finger being restrained.[/quote]
I've just done this and my mind is blown. It's a bizarre sensation, willing your finger to do something and it failing utterly to comply. I never knew...

[bassbloke]

I'm glad I started off a worthwhile discussion. For an instrument like bass, it's knowing when to shift position that has the most impact on fluency, rather than the ability to play 1fpf. Like I said, if you can play 1fpf then great - you have nice large hands. Those people that can't should not feel pressured into doing so and certainly shouldn't force themselves into a playing style that might cause them injury.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='746954' date='Feb 16 2010, 10:27 AM']Nothing clever about it. The pinkie just has a bigger reach.

Also, the third finger is dependent upon the second for its muscle power and is, thus, less flexible. If you place your hand flat on a tale then curl your middle (longest) finger underneath your palm, you cannot move the third independently as teh muscle is locked into the finger being restrained.[/quote]

Actually, that's to do with tendons and bone structure. Most bassists' 1, 2 and 3 fingers will be fine at fretting. The problem is that the pinky is a lot weaker in general.

If you fret the 3rd fret with your ring finger, then that's providing all the strength needed to pull the string from where it usually sits to the neck, then you'll find that the little finger has way less work to do to hold down the 4th fret since it's only moving the string a tiny bit instead of all the way from it's unfretted position. Same thing works with the first and second finger, just that because they're further away from your pinky, it's not quite as efficient as your ring.

[Marvin]

[quote name='endorka' post='744620' date='Feb 14 2010, 10:47 AM']Simandl:

[indent]Franz Simandl (August 1, 1840 - December 15, 1912) was a double-bassist and pedagogue who is remembered most for his New Method for the Double Bass, 30 Studies, and more advanced collection of studies, Gradus ad Parnassum. All three of these works are still in use today and are available in a number of competing critical editions.

His approach uses the first, second, and fourth fingers of the left hand (actually, the third and fourth operating together as one digit) for stopping the strings on the lower register of the instrument and divides the fingerboard into various positions.[/indent]

From [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?act=Post&CODE=02&f=31&t=77300&qpid=744609"]Wikipedia[/url] :-)

Jennifer[/quote]

Sorry to be a pain in the preverbal, but are you able to direct me to any exercises using Simandl technique?
I think it would really benefit me. I'm assuming at the moment that you shift to play scales in the lower registers.

[endorka]

The following links should help - they have fingerings for various scales using the Simandl method.

[url="http://doublebassblog.org/downloads/1_octave_scales_with_fingerings.pdf"]http://doublebassblog.org/downloads/1_octa..._fingerings.pdf[/url]
[url="http://doublebassblog.org/downloads/2_octave_scales_with_fingerings.pdf"]http://doublebassblog.org/downloads/2_octa..._fingerings.pdf[/url]

The "-" sign means a shift, which you can do, or in many cases replace with a pivot on the thumb for the bass guitar.

Jennifer