Bigger, louder amps!

[ThomBassmonkey]

Just replied to the thread about the GK1001RB+410RBH and I thought I'd start a new thread based on my reply in there.

Basically I'm (shortly going to be) running a 700RB though a 210RBH, I personally can't see any advantage to having more watts and more speakers.

The only apparent (looks aside) difference to me is volume and since any stage that can warrant having a big bass stack should have a PA that can handle having the bass put through it (whether mic'd or DI'd) I just don't get it.

I see the same thing with guitars, people show up to small pub gigs with full Marshall stacks then sound awful because they have their amps on 2 and can't drive the valves or risk making the sound tech's job hard. Obviously SS bass amps don't suffer from not pushing the valves, but I still don't understand why people would fork out several times the amount of money for a huge amp when there just doesn't seem to be any point apart from to annoy sound techs. Is it just a case of "bigger is better"?

Obviously this doesn't apply to smaller amps that don't have enough headroom to comfortably compete with drums/guitarists etc. It's more about things like the GK where there's a 320w-8ohm/480w-4ohm which should be loud enough for pretty much anywhere where there won't be a PA to run through up to 2001RB that gives 1080w-4ohm (though I can appreciate the 2001RB has more features, I'm talking specifically about the people who buy them for the higher power).

[WWRRSS]

I understand that when you're talking about pub covers bands, but as a musician playing my own stuff in gig venues, I wanna be louder than hell.

[ThomBassmonkey]

I play original songs up to several hundred people at a time too (and sometimes empty rooms, doh!) and being loud is a great advantage, but that's what the PA's there for.

Surely there's got to be some reason beyond "LOUD BASSES ARE BEST!", I mean we all know that's true ( ), but there must be some reason why people are spending hundreds of pounds more than they need when the PA can make you louder than you need to be anyway.

[WWRRSS]

PA Shme-A.

I never play that kind of venue, with a built up stage and a barrier and a massive PA, I generally and try my best to play in small venues, where we can play on the floor - with the audience. If the PA is being used it'll just be for the bass drum and vocals.

[mgibson]

Can i just say, that I love playing through big amps and always will, yes all the points above are valid but in the long run the reason why we by them is 'cause they have status, which in turn gives us status. Yes they move more air and can make things clearer but in the long run the ability to say we have a huge amp (which i don't) is the thing. Correct me if i'm wrong...

[chris_b]

You've made a few points:

A 2x10 is OK but more speakers generally sound better at the same volume because more speakers move more air and, in my opinion, that improves your tone.

Guys who turn up to a pub gig with stadium gear are usually inexperienced and going for a look rather than a sound. The smart guys, from Deep Purple onwards only plugged in the bottom cabs of their stacks.

I think there is confusion between "volume" with "headroom". OK there are some idiots around, but most people don't buy 500/800 watt amps to play on 11. If you play a 200 watt amp at 200 watts you won't get a clean sound with a good tone. You will get an overheating amp and lots of distorted, nasty sounding notes. So if you want 200 watts then get a 500/800 watt amp, which will get you a better tone and cleaner sound (because of their larger power supplies) which won't clip or distort when you want to hit louder notes, when slapping, for instance.

[ironside1966]

I don't get the big loud amp thing at all unless you play stadiums regular or other big stages, if you have a PA then let that do the work and bands or musicians who play too loud make it nearly impossible to get a good sound.

If you have just a small PA for vocals all that will happen is you drowned out the drummer and the singers anyway,
music that is too loud damages your ears as well as the audiences.

[ThomBassmonkey]

I suspected the biggest factor is appearance. Don't get me wrong, if I was an endorsee, first thing I'd want is a huge 1,000,000w head with 300 8x10s lined up behind me, I can't quite afford that at the moment though. I'm talking mainly about amateur musicians that only (regularly) gig up to medium sized venues with no endorsements.

[quote name='chris_b' post='744741' date='Feb 14 2010, 01:14 PM']A 2x10 is OK but more speakers generally sound better at the same volume because more speakers move more air and, in my opinion, that improves your tone.[/quote]

I've heard that and it's believable as more air would be moving rather than less air moving more. My point is more that any gig with a PA will either be DI'd (in which case your cab counts for squat anyway apart from on stage) or you'll be mic'd up (unlikely to be more than one mic, though I'm interested what to do with a tweeter since I'm going to be using a bi-amp from GK but I suspect the answer is: ignore it).

Surely with a DI or mic, a 350w ABC head through a 2x10 XYZ cab would sound just as good as a 700w ABC head through an 8x10 XYZ cab out front.

Like I said, this debate isn't about amps that struggle with headroom because obviously a more powerful amp is needed if your amp's having problems keeping up.

[Mr. Foxen]

Just cause places should have a good PA doesn't mean they do.

Plus you need a lot more headroom if you mess with detuning and don't want to sound like Fieldy (sounding like Fieldy is banned).

[MythSte]

Headroom...!

Obviously, You can do it one of two ways (or both, if your feeling a little macho!)

More cone area. or more power.

I'd rather have a big amp that can cope with the big stages i play 4 or 5 times a year that i can simply turn down for the smaller ones, than panic about not being heard on a decent stage. We often try not to flood the monitors with bass as the vocalists struggle to hear things, And its been a while since i've had my own dedicated monitor mix!

[Doddy]

[quote name='WWRRSS' post='744679' date='Feb 14 2010, 12:08 PM']I understand that when you're talking about pub covers bands, but as a musician playing my own stuff in gig venues, I wanna be louder than hell.[/quote]


The difference being...........?

[discreet]

[quote name='chris_b' post='744741' date='Feb 14 2010, 01:14 PM']If you play a 200 watt amp at 200 watts you won't get a clean sound with a good tone. So if you want 200 watts then get a 500/800 watt amp, which will get you a better tone and cleaner sound.[/quote]

I give this 10/10.

[karlthebassist]

[quote name='Doddy' post='744924' date='Feb 14 2010, 04:15 PM']The difference being...........?[/quote]

Ditto.

Are musicians playing in covers bands in pubs not alowed big fat juicy amps with nice tone?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='karlthebassist' post='744961' date='Feb 14 2010, 04:49 PM']Ditto.

Are musicians playing in covers bands in pubs not alowed big fat juicy amps with nice tone? [/quote]

Is it that the pub covers band are expected to bring their own PA, so the investment should be in a PA that can deal with bass, rather than a rig that can hold its own? Seems like ok logic, although not convinced that was the meaning.

[bigjohn]

If you can get your tone @ 200W then great. I can't. I Like lots of bass and roll of most of the treble and high mids. I wouldn't (can't) hear myself over the drums @ 200W unless I EQ'd differently.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='WWRRSS' post='744694' date='Feb 14 2010, 12:23 PM']If the PA is being used it'll just be for the bass drum and vocals.[/quote]

has been my experience too.

[WWRRSS]

[quote name='karlthebassist' post='744961' date='Feb 14 2010, 04:49 PM']Ditto.

Are musicians playing in covers bands in pubs not alowed big fat juicy amps with nice tone? [/quote]

Nah, I'm not saying that, I'm just speaking for my own quest to be as loud and horrible sounding as possible, regardless of the size of room i'm in etc.

Plus I try not to need the bands guitars/basses etc though the PA, we have it all sorted so the soundman only has to put the vocals loud enough.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Still not completely sure I agree with the PA thing, if the drums aren't going through the PA then all you need to compete with is the drums and that doesn't change wherever you are.

I see the point of those talking about PAs that sound awful or that have bad monitoring though. It only really makes sense for much bigger venues though as the smaller venues (not pub floor style, the smaller dedicated venues) are usually (but not always) big enough that 300w is enough.

Very interesting discussion though. I know it all comes down to headroom, I guess it just varies depending on peoples' mixes amongst other things.

[alanbass1]

Loud is good, I like loud.....

Seriously though, the 400 - 500 watt amps with a couple of Berg 1x12's seem to have the headroom that I need and I have a lot of bottom end dialled in. At bigger gigs the only thing we mic up (apart from vocals) through the PA is the kick drum.

[mep]

[quote name='WWRRSS' post='744694' date='Feb 14 2010, 12:23 PM']If the PA is being used it'll just be for the bass drum and vocals.[/quote]

This is generally my case as well, but with the (one) guitar going through the PA and monitors as well. My 200w Trace head runs 2 smallish cabs at 4ohms and usually does not have to go past 1.5. It's got plenty of headroom. I may have to turn up to 2 in some place (this is rare) and a bit more for an outdoor gig to fill the stage even when it's going through a PA & monitors. Every place is different and you have to be able to deal with the acoustics. Some places the sound is swallowed up and we will have to put me through the PA a bit to fill the sound out.

[gjones]

From my experience of talking to professional sound engineers, they love bands that don't have a loud backline. It causes feedback by being picked up by onstage mics - which means the vocals and acoustic instruments can't be turned up and end up lost in the mix. I play in two bands, the first is an electric blues band. The 2nd is an alt country band that uses primarily acoustic instruments and for both bands, at bigger gigs, I tend to use my amp just as a monitor and DI straight into the PA which results in a better overall sound. Frankly I'd love to turn up to 11 but I know I need to keep it relatively low on stage for the band to sound good out front. Some musicians I've met (and played with) have the opposite view which is ' As long as I sound good I don't give a sh*t what the band as a whole sound like' . But they tend to spend a lot of time playing along to records alone in their bedrooms, because nobody wants them in their band.

Edited February 15, 2010 by gjones

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='gjones' post='745387' date='Feb 14 2010, 11:21 PM']From my experience of talking to sound engineers, they love bands that don't have a loud backline.[/quote]

Loudest backline I've used belonged to the sound engineer.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='gjones' post='745387' date='Feb 14 2010, 11:21 PM']From my experience of talking to professional sound engineers, is they love bands that don't have a loud backline. It causes feedback by being picked up by onstage mics - which means the vocals and acoustic instruments can't be turned up and end up lost in the mix.[/quote]

It's not just the feedback, it's that a sound engineer's main job is to control the levels, it's impossible to do that if you can't turn down an instrument because the amp's up so loud that even with the channel muted it's overpowering.

I've been pretty lucky with guitarists in my bands but I've played with some real twits of bands at gigs. They come along with their 100w marshall stack then moan because they can't crank it to get the tone. Most haven't even heard of an attenuator. One guitarist in one of my bands had a TSL100 but at least he realise he couldn't crank it. It didn't sound great but it kept engineers happy.

[Phaedrus]

[quote name='WWRRSS' post='745296' date='Feb 14 2010, 09:23 PM']Nah, I'm not saying that, I'm just speaking for [b][i]my own quest to be as loud and horrible sounding as possible, regardless of the size of room i'm in etc[/i].[/b]

Plus I try not to need the bands guitars/basses etc though the PA, we have it all sorted so the soundman only has to put the vocals loud enough.[/quote]

Respectfully, you wouldn't make it past your first audition with my band. A band is a team with a common goal. Or at least it should be. I certainly wouldn't want to endure a gig where one (or more) band members simply want to be as loud as possible. Can anyone really be so blind or selfish to behave like that in a band? As mentioned, those guys won't spend much time in bands.


[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='745411' date='Feb 14 2010, 11:55 PM']It's not just the feedback, it's that a sound engineer's main job is to control the levels, it's impossible to do that if you can't turn down an instrument because the amp's up so loud that even with the channel muted it's overpowering.

I've been pretty lucky with guitarists in my bands but I've played with some real twits of bands at gigs. They come along with their 100w marshall stack then moan because they can't crank it to get the tone. Most haven't even heard of an attenuator. One guitarist in one of my bands had a TSL100 but at least he realise he couldn't crank it. It didn't sound great but it kept engineers happy.[/quote]

It's a shame, but it's a fact, that only the more experienced (and usually older) musicians are the ones arriving to a gig with 50w or even 30w 1x12" valve guitar combos and 200w 2x10 bass combos. It's spending time battling with on-stage volume that eventually teaches that the sound engineer was right - the quiter the band is on stage, the better the FOH sound will be.

A 100w valve guitar amp & 4x12" cab is louder than even large PA rigs by the time it's been cranked to get "the tone" (unfortunately, because of the dispersion pattern of the typical 4x12" cab, it's only the punters directly in front of those cabs that hear it - folks either side of it hear far reduced volume. PA speakers typically (and of necessity) have much wider dispersion patterns, so more punters get to hear what they should be hearing). And as has been said, what can the sound engineer do about the guitar's volume level when he's already got that channel muted?

I've posted more than a couple of times on this subject, and had hoped that a 200w 2x10" combo would suffice in my band - we have a 4000w PA that everything goes through. But I've come to decide that I'll get an amp of 400w or so and either a 4x10" cab or two 2x10"s. Why? Headroom. I want clean power on tap. If I never roll the volume past 2, so be it - I'll be content & confident that I have more on tap than I'll ever need, without needing to crank my volume in order to get "my tone", and without the risk of my sound breaking up, or something getting damaged.

The idea that the quiter the band is on stage the better things are out front goes against possibly the very reason we took up bass in the first place - to move air, to be thunderous, to [i]feel[/i] the sound . . . But if you use a PA, that's the PA's job - all the band's amps are simply stage monitors, and shouldn't interfere with the FOH soundspace. So long as everyone in the band can comfortably hear themselves and each other, that's as loud as you need to be: loud as necessary, quiet as possible.

Typically everyone needs to be heard over drums (or more specifically, cymbals), and then 100w valve 4x12" half-stacks. If your drummer can master playing dynamically, or is willing to experiment with damping, or even using smaller/thinner (read "quiter") cymbals, you're on the right road. And if your guitarist is willing to try a 50w 1x12" valve combo, specially if it's on an angled-up stand, pointing at his own head, you're in heaven.

We still need to feel the music, but there's a point where you have to realise that if you want to be called back to play a venue again, or if you hope that a bride- or groom-to-be will pop out of the crowd and ask you to play at their wedding, you need to comprimise - you sacrifice a little of what you want most out of it all, but gain doing it more often and for longer.

The crux of the whole answer to this is what level of conscientious responsibility a band member has - what are their priorities when they play with their band? Do they place more importance on the big picture, or on what they want for themselves?


Mark

[BottomEndian]

Bear in mind that everything that follows comes from someone who largely plays colossally heavy proggy-stonery-doomy 3-piece rock, usually tuning down to C, B-flat, A or A-flat as the whim takes us. The guitarist's running a 4x12" from a 150W solid-state bass head.

IME, in the vast majority of venues we've played, the PA has been for vocals only. Occasionally a drum or two might creep in. Everything else we just balance at the backline to the sound of the drums in the room. We've never drowned out a drummer (our drummers have always played hard), and the vocals are always audible. We're [i]nowhere near[/i] as loud as we have been on the rare occasions when we've had everything through the PA (which has never been up to us anyway -- always down to the venue/sound engineer), so it's not a volume thing.

[quote name='Phaedrus' post='745473' date='Feb 15 2010, 02:08 AM']If your drummer can master playing dynamically, or is willing to experiment with damping, or even using smaller/thinner (read "quiter") cymbals, you're on the right road.[/quote]
Sadly, drums played quietly (obviously not the same as playing dynamically, but you get the drift) or damped or with thinner cymbals sound completely different from undamped, whacked drums played with cymbals as thick as a baby's finger. Of course, that might be fine in the context of a particular band, but not with mine.

We have to remember as well that it's a bit silly to compare amp rig power using watts. It depends on how clean (how much THD) the amp power is rated, how sensitive the speakers in the cab are and all that stuff. I've used (among many others) a 150W valve amp and 1x15" cab (plenty loud), a 300W solid-state 1x15" combo (just about held its own), a 2x10" G-K combo (plenty loud through the mids but no real bottom), a 700W solid-state head with 4x10" and 1x15" cabs (OK for volume but a heavy pile), a pre- and power-amp setup at 800W with the same 4x10" and 1x15" cabs (way, way, [i]way[/i] too quiet)... the list goes on. Too many variables to say that "200W should be enough" or whatever. At the moment, my 500W amp head rarely gets above 10 o'clock on the master volume, but that's because the speakers in the cab are [i]soooo[/i] sensitive. It's nice to know the extra room's there if I need it.

Also, a 2x10 and a 4x10 sound pretty different at the bottom end, even with the same speakers and the same general construction. The larger box of the 4x10 allows a deeper sound, and an 8x10 will go deeper still (assuming it's a single box and not internally divided into two 4x10s). I know I'll get effortless bottom end from my cab because it's got a nice big box, and when your guitarist is tuning down so far he's into bass territory, it's nice to know that there's some real bottom available.

And obviously there's a context to everything. If I started doing more gentle, acoustic-y stuff (which I'd like to some time soon), I'd probably lug a different, smaller cab along. Not because the Vintage couldn't do the job, but because it'd be overkill and I wouldn't need so much bottom end.

Edited February 15, 2010 by BottomEndian