Bigger, louder amps!

[WWRRSS]

[quote name='Phaedrus' post='745473' date='Feb 15 2010, 02:08 AM']Respectfully, you wouldn't make it past your first audition with my band. [b]A band is a team with a common goal[/b]. Or at least it should be. I certainly wouldn't want to endure a gig where one (or more) band members simply want to be as loud as possible. Can anyone really be so blind or selfish to behave like that in a band? As mentioned, those guys won't spend much time in bands.[/quote]


The bands common goal can be playing really loud.

I play in 5 bands - 1 of which is folky stuff, 1 solo and 3 bands, and in all of those bands we're all being loud,
not in the sense to fight eachother for who's loudest,
more to make some all encompasing sound.

It's not a selfish think, I like playing loud as possible, as do the other members of the bands I play in, thats what we do.

I play music with my friends and thats it, I have no dream of making it big, or any real hopes of playing on massive stages etc.
I just want to play the kinda stuff I like watching with my mates on a bit of floor with loads of people packed in.

I'm not imagining I'm speaking for the majority of people on here, and i'm not trying to, I'm purely speaking about my own joy with huge, deafening and sometimes difficult sound.

Edited February 15, 2010 by WWRRSS

[thumperbob 2002]

I have been in bands with pa`s large and small. At the mo` we have two rigs- a 1kw HK rig for small gigs-I tend to use a Markbass LM2 and schroeder 1212L for these 100 audience gigs. vox, keys, brass and bass drum through the pa.

For larger functions in typically dead rooms we use a 2K rig with everything going through the pa but just a little bass as I use my markbass plus a little giant into a schroeder1212, 1515 and a peavey 2 x10. Total of 1.5K of bass. Dont have it stupid loud but really try to get the bass heard from the backline as too much bass into our little rig will kill it!! On stage mixing as we cant afford /dont want a soundman.

We are a 7 piece soul band and as long as you take a little time in soundcheck and through the night you can get a good sound with almost anything in any combination. I`ve been in bands forever and had my own pro studio in the 80s so hopefully I should know a little.

Bob

[BluRay]

I had a spell with a 200w combo, for boot of car reasons, which I thought would be fine - and to be fair, often it was. But sometimes it just wasn't! I do try to turn right down for the greater good of FOH (its not easy is it?!) but I think there are definately times when some extra backline really helps - instances of crappy monitors, or sound techs tweaking the settings so you can't hear a thing and then wandering off for a piss, weird room accoustics (the deaded high-roof L-shape venues), desk problems, house PA on the blink so you have to rely on a hastely acquired back-up, whatever. On balance I think there's much to be said for having access to a bit more oompf, even if its rarely called on. Peace of mind. And, as others have said, you can get a better sound cos of headroom thing too (even if no one else notices!). Obviously you don't want to look like a overcompensating tw*t in small venues, and depends on the band, but stage furnature is appropriate is some settings too, cos its part of the show. I've had the best results and flexabiliy with a mix and match / modular set up.

[Lfalex v1.1]

Headroom all the way. Assuming you don't like or require the sound of an amp being pushed to the limit.
I, too have a head and a 2x10, 1x15 and 4x10. I just mix and match to suit the venue / whichever band I'm playing in / what kind of gig we're playing that night. As long as I can hear myself on stage, that's fine. In my ideal world, venues with their own (static) PA would be generous enough to have monitors that can handle bass guitar, and then I could just live with a DI box.
Unfortunately, I've never been lucky enough to find even one. All we bassists get is our own backline, whilst guitarists / vocalists get a row of monitors across the front of the stage. Hell, even drummers get a monitor! Where's mine?

[51m0n]

Its all about context.

But IMO generally a 200w combo is not really sufficient backline without PA help, in most cases (ie blues rock pub band). And in most cases the pub rock band's PA is not up to giving any useful help to the bass without being in grave danger of going 'pop'. IME anyway.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='51m0n' post='745675' date='Feb 15 2010, 11:25 AM']Its all about context.

But IMO generally a 200w combo is not really sufficient backline without PA help, in most cases (ie blues rock pub band). And in most cases the pub rock band's PA is not up to giving any useful help to the bass without being in grave danger of going 'pop'. IME anyway.[/quote]


I agree (although there's 200w and 200w - I've played pub gigs easily with 100w amps before with no PA support - but then struggled with 250w amps in the same venue). And I don't see how playing a pub with a PA capable of mixing bass / guitar(s) vocals well enough and loud enough to play live drums to is any less overkill than turning up with a good loud bass amp and letting the PA take care of vocals.

If you [i]only ever[/i] play venues that have a decent in-house PA, I can see where it would make sense to have an amp that was purely for monitoring. But even then... I'd rather have the option.

[umph]

[quote name='chris_b' post='744741' date='Feb 14 2010, 01:14 PM']I think there is confusion between "volume" with "headroom". OK there are some idiots around, but most people don't buy 500/800 watt amps to play on 11. If you play a 200 watt amp at 200 watts you won't get a clean sound with a good tone.[/quote]
a 200watt amp if rated properly will do 200watts no problem clean all day and sound great. If you push it harder it'll begin to distort.

[Phaedrus]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='745720' date='Feb 15 2010, 12:02 PM']I agree (although there's 200w and 200w - I've played pub gigs easily with 100w amps before with no PA support - but then struggled with 250w amps in the same venue). And I don't see how playing a pub with a PA capable of mixing bass / guitar(s) vocals well enough and loud enough to play live drums to is any less overkill than turning up with a good loud bass amp and letting the PA take care of vocals.

If you [i]only ever[/i] play venues that have a decent in-house PA, I can see where it would make sense to have an amp that was purely for monitoring. But even then... I'd rather have the option.[/quote]

Loud bass, when everything else isn't loud is bass overkill. Loud PA, when everything is balanced in the mix can be overkill for sure, but if the FOH mix is too loud, it can be lowered, retaining the balanced mix - having everything in the FOH mix facilitates greater control (typically by just one person, who usually knows what they're doing and usually has an idea of what a balanced FOH mix entails), whereas having just vocals in the PA leaves balancing the mix that the punter hears at the whim of the individual band members. And that can work just fine - I've seen it work just fine. But my own preference is for the greater control that everything going through the PA facilitates.

I agree with having a higher-powered bass amp and more speakers to allow for most situations.

BTW, I also apply that idiom to our PA - more power on tap means cleaner gain structure and more headroom before signal degradation/feedback. I don't think we ever have or ever will push our PA to the maximum of what it's capable of, but that headroom is confidence-inspiring and comforting.


Mark

[elliswasp]

[quote name='chris_b' post='744741' date='Feb 14 2010, 01:14 PM']You've made a few points:

A 2x10 is OK but more speakers generally sound better at the same volume because more speakers move more air and, in my opinion, that improves your tone.

Guys who turn up to a pub gig with stadium gear are usually inexperienced and going for a look rather than a sound. The smart guys, from Deep Purple onwards only plugged in the bottom cabs of their stacks.

I think there is confusion between "volume" with "headroom". OK there are some idiots around, but most people don't buy 500/800 watt amps to play on 11. If you play a 200 watt amp at 200 watts you won't get a clean sound with a good tone. You will get an overheating amp and lots of distorted, nasty sounding notes. So if you want 200 watts then get a 500/800 watt amp, which will get you a better tone and cleaner sound (because of their larger power supplies) which won't clip or distort when you want to hit louder notes, when slapping, for instance.[/quote]

I agree i have just done that exact thing i bought a 300w amp that i had to turn all the way up just to be heard so i took it back and bought a 600w amp hoping i wont have to turn the damn thing up all the way just to heard i would rather have more power than i ever need so as to not make the amp work hard its entire life.

[thumperbob 2002]

"Loud bass, when everything else isn't loud is bass overkill. Loud PA, when everything is balanced in the mix can be overkill for sure, but if the FOH mix is too loud, it can be lowered, retaining the balanced mix - having everything in the FOH mix facilitates greater control (typically by just one person, who usually knows what they're doing and usually has an idea of what a balanced FOH mix entails"

!n my experience soundmen do not know what they are doing- only met a couple that did in 30yrs

bob

[derrenleepoole]

We've all played with guitarists like this. And this was for an acoustic folk festival event

'nuff said...

[elliswasp]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='746513' date='Feb 15 2010, 08:56 PM']We've all played with guitarists like this. And this was for an acoustic folk festival event

'nuff said...



[/quote]

Ive got to say when i stopped laughing that is something else isnt it im mean really thats amaizing i didnt realise that anyone made a set up that big let alone that anyone would be silly enough to consider using it lol that really is fantastic

[ThomBassmonkey]

Jeez What happens if you trip over the lead and accidentally pull it out? And that's assuming it doesn't pull over the stack and cause a small earthquake.

Amps really do vary on wattages, I've been using a 150w Carlsbro for almost 9 years and it's always been plenty loud enough for anything I've tried to do with it without clipping (according to the LED and it's always sounded fine) but it's a bit of a beast in that you can max the volume without any problems then get the gain right to set your volume if you need LOUD. Played quite a few gigs to 100+ people without going through the PA. I've seen some 300w combos (usually Ashdown IME) that can barely even handle a band practice.

Sound techs can be pains when they don't know what they're doing. My old band all met through college and two of us went on to start a degree in studio engineering (I only did a year, the singer finished it) so we know what all the little knobs do, if you dare mention that an instrument needs to go up or down though, some sound techs throw a wobbly. Obviously there's a lot that're great about it and realise they don't know what you want your band to sound like and it's not up to them to decide, but there's always a few. Having a similar problem at the moment too because my current band has a flute so in rock venues, noone knows what to do with it. Though most are more accepting of help when they're completely baffled.

[mep]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='745720' date='Feb 15 2010, 12:02 PM']I agree (although there's 200w and 200w -[/quote]

My 200w Trace head blows yer socks off and is more like other 350 - 400w heads. It's always more than enough. Headroom all the way! I always get a good stage sound that we are all happy with and then let the PA take care of FOH.

[The Funk]

I gig through a 1000W stack while my guitarist plays through a 6W 1x12" valve combo. It's the only way to get the guitar and bass balanced!

[elliswasp]

Funny isnt it watts they really mean nothing when it comes down to it its the same with home audio equipmen you can buy valve amps that are no more than a couple of watts ans with the right pair of speakers they will sound louder thanmost hi fi's with 100w or more.

Its all about the db's.

Markus

[Pentode]

[quote name='elliswasp' post='748858' date='Feb 17 2010, 07:56 PM']Its all about the db's.[/quote]

Dogs Bollocks??





Sorry..

[jimmyb625]

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' post='746493' date='Feb 15 2010, 08:42 PM']"Loud bass, when everything else isn't loud is bass overkill. Loud PA, when everything is balanced in the mix can be overkill for sure, but if the FOH mix is too loud, it can be lowered, retaining the balanced mix - having everything in the FOH mix facilitates greater control (typically by just one person, who usually knows what they're doing and usually has an idea of what a balanced FOH mix entails"

!n my experience soundmen do not know what they are doing- only met a couple that did in 30yrs

bob[/quote]

Bit of a generalisation there?

It's like everything, there are good and bad engineers, like there are good and bad musicians.

Maybe you've been unlucky, but that doesn't mean they're all like that.

[ironside1966]

Getting a good sound is down to the band, first you need good clean arrangements so that the instruments are allowed their own space and are not cluttered by every one competing for the same frequencies. Next the sound of the individual instruments needs to work well together, when all the band members want a big larger than life sound for their own instruments the band generally sound a mess, good bad or no sound engineer.

The bass carries so you can hear the bass end in a crowded room long after the mid and top end is gone and the bass is generally louder further away from the speaker.

No one needs to be louder than the quietist instrument

Lastly wattage is virtually meaningless as there a two many variables, eg, the efficiency of the amp and speaker
IMHO the super stack is the equivalent of having a 4 by 4 for a townies school run.

[discreet]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='749194' date='Feb 18 2010, 12:50 AM']Getting a good sound is down to the band, you need good clean arrangements so that the instruments are allowed their own space and are not cluttered by every one competing for the same frequencies.[/quote]

This is the key, IMO.

[GremlinAndy]

When I was first in bands the PA was always an expense no one could afford. (Damned singers thinking a Mic is all they need!) So back then the PA was something communally owned, which mainly just allowed vocal amplification. All the rest of the sound was delivered by the backline. And bass being less audible to the human ear was always lost, when compared to the Guitar/keys.
After that we had a bit better PA, (not mine) but with all the band and drums going through it, the bass would quickly use up all the under powered amps potential, so the bass was rolled right off by the sound guy, ...and sounded weak and pappy. Very annoying.
Hence *my* personal search to have a backline which is capable of being used loudly enough (with lots of headroom) without PA assistance.
The *irony* is that [b]I[/b] now own the 20k Turbosound rig for the bands PA and can put as much bass through it as I want/need.

[Phaedrus]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='749194' date='Feb 18 2010, 12:50 AM'][b][i]Getting a good sound is down to the band, first you need good clean arrangements so that the instruments are allowed their own space and are not cluttered by every one competing for the same frequencies. Next the sound of the individual instruments needs to work well together, when all the band members want a big larger than life sound for their own instruments the band generally sound a mess, good bad or no sound engineer.[/i][/b]
The bass carries so you can hear the bass end in a crowded room long after the mid and top end is gone and the bass is generally louder further away from the speaker.

No one needs to be louder than the quietist instrument

Lastly wattage is virtually meaningless as there a two many variables, eg, the efficiency of the amp and speaker
IMHO the super stack is the equivalent of having a 4 by 4 for a townies school run.[/quote]

Case in point: I worked hard to nail the bass line for Alanis Morissette's You Oughta Know for rehearsal last Tuesday. After we jammed it, the guitarist said the song was rocking. The new girl singer said "nice bassline, Mark! I couldn't hear it, but your hands were flying round the place!" Neither could I. What was the point in me learning any of the fills, when all that could be heard was that I was in tune - I may as well have just played the F# without any fills.

When even just one band member's own personal wants obscure their regard for the big picture, everyone else may just head home.

BTW, I've owned two 4x4s, and loved them both, and would love to have another one again. And while we did use the second one for the school runs, I also used it to hump band gear round in, and to get me to places where I fish that would otherwise mean long awkward walks. I couldn't (can't) afford to run a separate normal car for the school run [i]and[/i] a 4x4 for the fishing/load-lugging. So rather than have a normal car that could only cover one of my requirements, I had a 4x4 that could cover both.

This analogy works pretty well within the bass amp/PA context - more on tap than will likely ever be needed is far more sensible than less on tap than could sometime be needed.

Just because a 4x4 can drive off-road doesn't mean we have to copy Marge in her Canyonero every morning . . .

Just because we have a 700w 4x10 rig, doesn't mean we have to play at 11 all the time . . .


Mark

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Phaedrus' post='750465' date='Feb 19 2010, 02:39 AM']BTW, I've owned two 4x4s, and loved them both, and would love to have another one again. And while we did use the second one for the school runs, I also used it to hump band gear round in, and to get me to places where I fish that would otherwise mean long awkward walks. I couldn't (can't) afford to run a separate normal car for the school run [i]and[/i] a 4x4 for the fishing/load-lugging. So rather than have a normal car that could only cover one of my requirements, I had a 4x4 that could cover both.[/quote]

Using your analogy though, would you use a 4x4 if you only needed to do the school run or transport yourself without any gear that wouldn't fit in an average car?

I guess the car analogy is a good one though since people do buy sports cars and 4x4s to do the shopping and pick up their kids even just for the image.

[chris_b]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='750470' date='Feb 19 2010, 04:01 AM']....Using your analogy though, would you use a 4x4 if you only needed to do the school run or transport yourself without any gear that wouldn't fit in an average car?....[/quote]
If the roads where you are are anything like the roads around here, ie full of serious pot holes, you need a 4x4 to drive anywhere!

[ironside1966]

Done many gigs both large and small with a 150 watt amps and I remember a time when 200 watts was considered aloud pro amp never accrued to me that I did not have enough headroom.
I used a 450watt Peavey databass for years never got it past 4 and the main reason I bought it was because it was considered small at the time.
I totally understand headroom having worked with PA’s for a long time but what worries me about the 1000 watt brigade is do you turn it down and play within reasonable volumes because I have met many who don’t.
Dose the big fat loud sound with tones of punch work within the context of the band? In a pup gig with a small stage large gear as a large footprint.

How big and loud dose an amp need to be before it gets silly?
Would a smaller amp do you more favors?
What’s more impotent your sound or the bands?

Edited February 19, 2010 by ironside1966