Bigger, louder amps!

[Earbrass]

In my experience a lot of people regard their gear, both basses and rigs, as status symbols, imagining that owning "desirable" gear somehow gives them a credibility they would otherwise lack. This is both tragic and stupid.

[Phaedrus]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='750470' date='Feb 19 2010, 04:01 AM']Using your analogy though, would you use a 4x4 if you only needed to do the school run or transport yourself without any gear that wouldn't fit in an average car?

I guess the car analogy is a good one though since people do buy sports cars and 4x4s to do the shopping and pick up their kids even just for the image.[/quote]


No, I wouldn't. If I was only ever going to play with PA support, I'd just DI and make sure the PA could supply my own monitor with enough bass for the stage. I might use a small combo. And in truth, the vast majority of live situations I'll probaly be in will be using our full PA, but another factor to consier is the PA failing - at least with a bigger amp, we could still probably pull off the gig, using our backline for the instruments and our active monitors for the vocals.

I'm really only applying some concession to bass amps with this - I still see 100w 4x12" valve guitar half-stacks as way OTT for pub gigs. I could condone a 2x12" combo (less speakers = lower loudness for a given gain level, IIUC?), which could still probably pull off a "PA-fail" scenario.

FWIW, we now have an 11 year-old Alhambra & a 15 year-old Corolla estate - either can do the school runs or the load-lugging, but I'm back to trapsing through a few fields to get to the lakes . . .


Mark

[bigjohn]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='750801' date='Feb 19 2010, 12:47 PM']Done many gigs both large and small with a 150 watt amps and I remember a time when 200 watts was considered aloud pro amp never accrued to me that I did not have enough headroom.
I used a 450watt Peavey databass for years never got it past 4 and the main reason I bought it was because it was considered small at the time.
I totally understand headroom having worked with PA’s for a long time but what worries me about the 1000 watt brigade is do you turn it down and play within reasonable volumes because I have met many who don’t.
Dose the big fat loud sound with tones of punch work within the context of the band? In a pup gig with a small stage large gear as a large footprint.

How big and loud [b]dose [/b]an amp need to be before it gets silly?
Would a smaller amp do you more [b]favors[/b]?
What’s more [b]impotent [/b]your sound or the bands?[/quote]


I've never had a dose, had favours from an amp nor any trouble that would require a helping of Pele's keepy uppy tablets.


I'm currently using putting 600W (with the gain at about 7/10) into a schroeder 1212L for pub gigs.

It's not that loud. In fact, at the last gig we did, I was asked to turn it up.

It would be loud if Eq'd differently. Big fat loud sound would require less power. Flat to a little mid scooped with a flatwound strung jazz with the tone rolled back requires quite lot of it.

Not so long back I used a 100W bass amp for a gig, people who came to both that one and our last gig, with the big rig, all remarked how much better the band sounded, basically because I wasn't crawling all over the guitars with an amp EQ'd to be heard over the drummer.

Edited February 19, 2010 by bigjohn

[ironside1966]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='750875' date='Feb 19 2010, 01:30 PM']I've never had a dose, had favours from an amp nor any trouble that would require a helping of Pele's keepy uppy tablets.


I'm currently using putting 600W (with the gain at about 7/10) into a schroeder 1212L for pub gigs.

It's not that loud. In fact, at the last gig we did, I was asked to turn it up.

It would be loud if Eq'd differently. Big fat loud sound would require less power. Flat to a little mid scooped with a flatwound strung jazz with the tone rolled back requires quite lot of it.

Not so long back I used a 100W bass amp for a gig, people who came to both that one and our last gig, with the big rig, all remarked how much better the band sounded, basically because I wasn't crawling all over the guitars with an amp EQ'd to be heard over the drummer.[/quote]

This is a good point that a lot of musicians play to the power of their own amp, if the bass guitar could not compete with the volume why didn’t everyone else turn down. I have nothing against large amps but speaking with my sound engineer’s hat on, musicians and bass players need to play at reasonable levels even without a PA and a reasonable quality and efficient amp and speaker of 150 watts is capable in most cases, it seems to me that modern gear has more power but is less efficient or the ratings quoted are at 2 ohms.
Sorry to be boring but the legal and safe level of noise is well below the volume of what most bands play at

Low frequencies use the most headroom in an poweramp

Edited February 19, 2010 by ironside1966

[Dubs]

[quote]Bigger, louder amps!, Is there any point?[/quote]

If it doesn't make your balls tingle then it's not loud or low enough

[bigjohn]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='750957' date='Feb 19 2010, 03:02 PM']This is a good point that a lot of musicians play to the power of their own amp, if the bass guitar could not compete with the volume why didn’t everyone else turn down. I have nothing against large amps but speaking with my sound engineer’s hat on, musicians and bass players need to play at reasonable levels even without a PA and a reasonable quality and efficient amp and speaker of 150 watts is capable in most cases, it seems to me that modern gear has more power but is less efficient or the ratings quoted are at 2 ohms.
Sorry to be boring but the legal and safe level of noise is well below the volume of what most bands play at

Low frequencies use the most headroom in an poweramp[/quote]


legal and safe levels of noise have nothing to do with the power being used to create it though does it? you can make 10kW amp inaudible if you use it to create noise which is below or above audible frequencies.

I'm comfortable with 4,5,600W as I know I won't have to EQ to make my bass more audible. I use the EQ to get the tone I want, then turn it up to make it audible. That's the point of having a loud amp for me. It means you can actually use the EQ for what it's for (tone shaping) rather than bandpassing to avoid clipping the poweramp.

Even with some 300W combos I've used, I've found myself EQing more mids and treble to the point where the sound of the band suffers. That said, I've got a super efficient 150W combo that does the trick, but it's heavy and large.

[ironside1966]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='751060' date='Feb 19 2010, 04:14 PM']legal and safe levels of noise have nothing to do with the power being used to create it though does it? you can make 10kW amp inaudible if you use it to create noise which is below or above audible frequencies.

I'm comfortable with 4,5,600W as I know I won't have to EQ to make my bass more audible. I use the EQ to get the tone I want, then turn it up to make it audible. That's the point of having a loud amp for me. It means you can actually use the EQ for what it's for (tone shaping) rather than bandpassing to avoid clipping the poweramp.

Even with some 300W combos I've used, I've found myself EQing more mids and treble to the point where the sound of the band suffers. That said, I've got a super efficient 150W combo that does the trick, but it's heavy and large.[/quote]


May be you or your band play too loud and thats why you need a bigger amp

Edited February 19, 2010 by ironside1966

[bigjohn]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='751081' date='Feb 19 2010, 04:33 PM']May be you or your band play too loud and thats why you need a bigger amp[/quote]


Loud does not need power.

Loud needs enough power and a sound made up of particular frequencies. You can make a 2W transistor radio sound "loud".
People say "turn that down, it sounds sh!t".

I totally agree that a 100W bass amp can be EQ'd to sound "loud".

But you've got to agree that a 1kW amp can be driven hard and not sound "loud".

ie, if you're amplifying lower bass frequencies, you need a lot more power than you would to produce mid bass frequencies to create the same dB.

Edited February 19, 2010 by bigjohn

[ironside1966]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='751120' date='Feb 19 2010, 05:07 PM']Loud does not need power.

Loud needs enough power and a sound made up of particular frequencies. You can make a 2W transistor radio sound "loud".
People say "turn that down, it sounds sh!t".

I totally agree that a 100W bass amp can be EQ'd to sound "loud".

But you've got to agree that a 1kW amp can be driven hard and not sound "loud".

ie, if you're amplifying lower bass frequencies, you need a lot more power than you would to produce mid bass frequencies to create the same dB.[/quote]

I totally understand that Watts and SPLS are not the same thing
What is important to a bass amp is the amount of clean power so you can get a good balanced sound without distortion once this can be achieved at the volume of a loud drummer why do you need any more volume and once a band starts hitting 105db then it’s time to turn down. I have worked and seen many bands that play at frightening volumes and if you gave them louder amps they will still turn them up so having more power is not a good thing.
I believe that for every doubling of watts there is only a 3db difference and to double the volume the wattage needs increased tenfold so quality efficient gear over size and power or one good speaker is better than two bad ones.
Going back the original thread is there any point to bigger louder amps? No because most amps are loud enough

[escholl]

Yes, I think there's a point to more powerful amps. I use two large, fairly efficient 1x15 cabs, and a fairly flat eq, so I don't need anything more than the 250 watt amp I have.

But if I was using one of the tiny cabs that have become popular these days, and are less sensitive in the lows, I might need to EQ in an extra 3db in the lower frequencies just to get the same response I might otherwise get out of a larger, more efficient cab. An if I like a bassier, more scooped tone, I might like to add another 3db on top of that. And that combined 6db increase means a roughly 4x increase in the power required, at least for the EQ'd section of the frequency range. And so, instead of 250 watts, I might need a 1kw amp. Hence the need for a big, powerful amp.

[Phil Starr]

The trouble with these debates is that they are in terms of watts and not about how loud things are, which is measured in decibels. If your amp/speaker combination can reproduce 100dB average and 120dB peaks it will be loud enough for anything including permanent damage to your hearing.

An efficient speaker will produce 100dB with one watt, doubling the power produces an extra 3dB and ten times the power 10dB so 100W will produce an extra 20dB and 200W 23dB. So 123dB which is plenty giving you 3dB of headroom through this speaker. Average speakers in combo's often produce only 96dB/W so a 200W combo might only get to 119dB.

Then you add in effects. A compressor will limit the dynamic range so if you have it on low it might gain you 5dB or on high 10dB still leaving you with a dynamic range of 20dB. If you use 3dB bass boost you will need to double the power of your amp and 12 dB will need 16 times the wattage.

A lot of the problems come because people miss the point that our ears don't work in a linear fashion. Doubling the power is only a small increase in volume, you need ten times the power to get double the volume. This is why bass amps come in silly powers an 800W amp isn't twice as loud as a 100W amp through the same speakers!

It is also much better for your final sound to keep the volume down on stage as all the old musicians know. There are a whole load of technical reasons for this which I've written about on Ultimate Guitar, but for a touring band it can be a good decision to keep the bass out of the PA. Putting bass through the PA is an expensive decision as you will need a much bigger PA. Potentially you might need to upgrade your main speakers and add bass bins plus their associated amps. It is a lot cheaper to just put in a big bass stack and since bass is fairly non directional you can still sound good. All you lose is the ability to adjust bass levels from front of house, so long as you keep the bass filtered out of the vocal mics. There's nothing wrong about either way of putting out bass to the audience, PA or stack, it is just a decision you need to make.

So I guess people putting 100W through efficient speakers are making good choices and so are people using 1000W amps through less efficient speakers. You need more power if you boost bass ( though you could just change your speakers) and less if you cut bass or use compression. It is sensible to go through the PA and monitors and it is sensible not to do this.