floating thumb technique?!?

[mcgraham]

free strokes can sound weak i agree. although i found that most free stroke users tend to pluck outwards from the strings, and provide very little contact with the strings. however if you start the pluck of the free stroke with the same sort of contact and action that you would a rest stroke, you get a really thick and defined note. the only difference is it doesn't rest on the string below. in fact i'd describe it almost as a rest stroke but where the follow through JUST misses the string below i.e. almost grazes the top of the lower string.

re; muting, that was one of the main reasons i went back to develop my 2 finger technique. i muted by dragging my index behind the movement of my other fingers, thus damping any extraneous vibrations or ringing strings from changing strings. however said muting technique couldn't cope with anything as intricate as lots of repeated string changes. hence, 2 fingers and floating thumb.

the electric bass is indeed a young instrument, and the fact that it borrows so heavily from guitar and upright bass makes it hard to settle on which techniques from each camp lend themselves to the electric bass better

mark

[steviedee]

Cheers guys very useful particularly on the 5, been messing about with it since I saw this post and surprisingly comes quite naturally, though for some reason feels a bit odd on the E or low B, kind of exposed but sure I'll get used might make me play a little softer to which wouldn't be bad thing.

Thanks for the links and making the video man!

[mcgraham]

It is a great technique isn't it You should find it gets easier with practice. Another benefit of it is that it teaches/enables you to relax, and (particularly on the low strings) you find your thumb is free to chuck in other notes should you want to. It's just a wonderfully neutral hand position for all manner of techniques.

Mark

[tempo]

I started using floating thumb last year, when I moved to playing 6-7 string bass. I read about it over on the Todd Johnson forum over on TB. It is an unnatural feeling at first, you feel like you have no dynamic control, because of the lack of anchor when pulling on a string. This passes with practice, of course, and you end up with more control as you naturally play with a lighter touch. Of course the muting benefits are great, especially on 5 or more strings, and as previously mentioned, alternating between fingers, slap/pop, strumming & classical style are facilitated quicker IME.
I will say, my transition was fairly quick, probably as I didn't have to "un-learn" too much as I'd only picked up bass several months before. Also, although this technique has many benefits, I'm not too convinced of its worth on 4 bangers.

[mcgraham]

[quote]Also, although this technique has many benefits, I'm not too convinced of its worth on 4 bangers[/quote]

Whilst I will acknowledge that sympathetic and other extraneous vibrations are easier to avoid and less of a problem on 4 string basses, I completely see it's worth on all instruments. You are not 'attached' to anything on your bass in the same way that you are with anchoring, therefore you are significantly more free to move around. The wrist does not need to stretch, bend, or do anything other than stay relaxed and keep the tendons that control your fingers in place. What[i]ever[/i] instrument you play, with however many strings, this can [i]only[/i] be a good thing.

Mark

[tempo]

Your probably right, its just Ive not played a bass with less than 5 strings for more than 5 minutes since I changed to floating thumb. When I have its felt a bit uncomfortable, but that could of been a number of things.

[mcgraham]

Gotcha. That's another great thing about the technique, you could (theoretically) have a bass with a course of strings as wide as your arm is long and you'd still (theoretically) be able to mute all of them. So the physical difficulty in changing to an instrument with more strings is reduced to the left hand. And if your technique is also correct there (that discussion is for another topic ) then the problem purely becomes getting used to the general physicality of the new instrument and adjusting your mental approach.

Mark

[Lo.]

Not that it matters or is surprising, but Jamerson invented it....here's a hook-jam using it...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjz571HJ3Dk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjz571HJ3Dk[/url]

LOL - I read that Chuck Rainey showed Jamerson his two-finger RH approach, and JJ called it cissy.

[XB26354]

Nice vid, but that guy missed the golden rule about tapping your foot - don't use the same leg that the bass is on when you're sitting down! Look at the bass bouncing all over the place...
Going back to floating thumb/free strokes, a rest stroke is not just there to stop the fingers, it provides an extra "thump" to the note that gives a bass line more depth. As there is a definite termination point to the movement of your finger you can remain relaxed throughout. When playing any style the plucking hand is under tension (even if you're relaxed). With rest strokes that tension is almost immediately resolved as the finger rests on the adjacent string. With free strokes the finger is in the air somewhere above the string (you can't bring the finger further than where the string is or that would be inefficient). Gary also makes the point that a rest stroke requires less effort to play (as there is the thump to the note) - with a free stroke you have to play pretty hard to get the same volume in a note. I've sat down with both techniques for a while and don't like either the tone or the hand position one gets into with a free stroke. It works fine on guitar (which has thin strings and where chords are much more likely to be played), but bass needs more oomph. I think it is worth bearing in mind that 3 or 4-finger techniques work better on narrow spacing at the bridge - 16-17mm - as wide spacing (like on a P-bass) stretches the gap between index and ring finger at rest, distorting the hand a little (but there is not a lot in it TBH). Notice also that Gary gets a very crisp and defined sound, yet it sounds very clean. That is right hand dampening. Free strokes don't dampen anything so something else has to. However, if you play one note on one string then one note on the next string up and repeat quickly, how can you dampen the strings? I guess you must use the left hand or else your right hand would be moving back and forth - hardly efficient! I think what you mention about the stroke just missing the string is also telling - if you're going to move the finger right next to the string then dampen it, get a thicker tone and rest it on the string with next to zero added effort.
Then again, we do have to put all of this in perspective as James Jamerson played absolutely killer lines basically with [i]one[/i] finger!

[jakenewmanbass]

A very quick somewhat obvious (but oft overlooked until too late) chime in here.
With all techniques related to actual sound production, depending on the level at which one performs, it can be important to ensure that the 'technique' is not taking over from how it sounds.
My reasoning for this specific point is that, as a player and producer, I have lots of recording experience and have encountered in myself and players of other instruments a phenomenon.

Get to the studio, play what you've been playing for sometime, realise one of the following or similar:
There are extraneous noises emanating from the instrument resulting from hand /body movements (previously un-noticed)
Bass players often hit the strings on the back beat causing a big thump where the snare should be.
Inaccuracy causing fret noises.

My point is, in concentrating on techniques always make sure you listen to the result, you might think you're ripping it up when you get your technique off to a tee but eg.. there is an uneveness between sounds produced by 2nd and 3rd right hand finger..
using thumbing produces a strong note, weak note due to the relative strengths of the two.
All these possibles (you might suffer from none of them and then thats fine) can be a real pull up short if they only become exposed in the studio, and if you are being watched, paid and expected to produce the goods it can turn a fun job into a harrowing experience. If you consider these points it should give sight of two things,
Quality control:
you might be doing it well, but does it [i]sound[/i] good.
Problem solving:
If the answer to the above is no, then adjusting so that it does teaches you a coping mechanism for rectifying if you come across issues such as these.

I am in no way suggesting the really good advice in this thread is ignored, this post is more an adjunct to what has already been said.

How it sounds in the speakers is the final test and [i]can[/i] rubbish any technique.

[XB26354]

I agree 100% - I said somewhere above that the technique should serve the sound, not the other way round.
I've got about 15 years' recording experience from small commercial facilities to big budget studios. The reason I mention right hand dampening was down to a previous experience a long time ago when I got my first 5-string. I was playing a tune, the take sounded good. The engineer said "what's that rumble?". The producer and engineer scratched their heads for a while until they soloed each track individually. It was the bottom B ringing every time I played the higher strings. That session was over for me because I couldn't play the part, so I had to go home in some disgrace and actually look at my right hand for the first time.

The point about taking your playing to the stage where you can record and play live in high pressure situations is that your technique has to be foolproof and [i]not get in the way of making music[/i]. Now this may mean that you have to work at your technique very hard for a long time to get it even. There is no physiological reason why we cannot play with three fingers - they're all the same size (pretty much) and although the ring finger can initially feel weak with the right practice that goes away. Piano players use all five fingers of both hands! I haven't employed the little finger as it is so much smaller than the other fingers and is noticeably weaker in the position we hold the bass.
Two fingers comes from the origin of electric bass - double bass. A combination of a more guitaristic approach that still serves the bass function seems to be where electric bass technique should be headed.

The payoff with the Willis technique is a very relaxed playing position, great mobility when crossing strings (accuracy means much less likelihood of messing up because of weak technique) and right hand dampening. All these things [i]clean up[/i] your technique, both live and in the studio. Engineers loved Jamerson because there was no fretbuzz or extraneous noises. With more volume, a light touch and proper technique it works just as well. I'd recommend any beginner to take a good long look at the Willis video. I have yet to see anyone else give a more convincing, logical explanation on how to play the [i]electric[/i] bass, rather than how to adapt double bass playing to electric.

Edited May 24, 2008 by XB26354

[jakenewmanbass]

XB, great and really knowledgable advice all round, I have never looked at the Gary Willis thing but you've sold it to me.
Cheers
Jake

[XB26354]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='205480' date='May 24 2008, 12:01 PM']XB, great and really knowledgable advice all round, I have never looked at the Gary Willis thing but you've sold it to me.
Cheers
Jake[/quote]
Oh cheers! I am not 100% sure that it is suited to everyone, and I could certainly improve with it - but it's worth a try if you can't find something that works for you.... I'll be seeing Matt Garrison's trio next month so I'll take a good look and see how he plays. The YouTube stuff I have seen seems to show that he uses two fingers for legato lines and four fingers for a rapid, flamenco like line on one string. Tony Grey seems to use floating technique all the time and can certainly play ridiculously fast. But my favourite player, Anthony Jackson, seems to have a very flowery and unconventional way of playing, sometimes with the thumb, sometimes with 1, 2 or 3 fingers and of course the pick. He gets the bass sound of doom so he must be doing something right

[jakenewmanbass]

Jackson is one of my faves too, very individual but classic at the same time. Glamour profession on Steely Dan's Goucho is a killer line, especially as for large parts of it there is a synth on the one and the bass plays the line 'off it'.
I am also a v big Jimmy Johnson fan. He has an incredibly light right hand technique, with one of the most consistent tones in the biz IMO.
Jake

Edited May 25, 2008 by jakesbass

[mcgraham]

Great posts there!

I have to say I disagree with regard to the free stroke not being strong enough (in tone) or efficient enough. I recognise that the 'thump' after a free stroke is useful to beef up the tone, however I preferred (and still do prefer to an extent) the cleanness of each note played free stroke. I too have sat down and examined the two techniques, and the reason I did not opt for free strokes in my two finger playing was that (in conjunction with the floating thumb) the hand position was too tense and slightly contorted. From an (in)effiency perspective, I don't agree that free strokes are inefficient. If you adopt the stance that Willis teaches which is to replace your finger that has just plucked a string (e.g. index) onto the next string to be plucked once the following finger (e.g. middle) has plucked, then the change in direction occurs very naturally and the faster you go (when the difference really counts) the distance they travel is much smaller before you change their direction. However, saying that, I have opted for rest strokes, so I think that says which I prefer

Re: Recorded and live playing; absolutely, sound is first and foremost, technique should serve that first. I'm hugely anal about my sound, I practice almost exclusively through headphones (mostly eq'd to take some of the bass out) so I can hear every mistake, extraneous noises, bad/weak notes etc that I make so as to excise them from my playing. And every technique that I pick up I examine as I improve to find what works and what doesn't. I like clean, I don't fret noise, buzz or anything but the notes (a slight oversimplification of my preferences but that isn't for this topic). My rule is, if you (and/or your bass) sound good/great going direct into a desk or quality headphones, then it'll sound great through even a poor amp.

Re: Tony Grey; his technique has changed a bit over the last few years. I wouldn't say he always uses floating thumb, at least from the vids I've seen. Older ones of him performing 'If' & 'Kung Fu World champion' he uses free strokes (almost exclusively) and has his thumb anchored practically parallel to the B/E strings. Looked really uncomfortable. However I agree in 'Return of the Kung Fu world champion' he looks like he's using floating thumb, but still with free strokes. Are there any videos you've checked out that are worth looking at for his new style?

Re: your unfortunate (but ultimately beneficial!) studio gig; there are an ABSURD number of players, and players considered to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, that play with shockingly noisy playing styles. For instance, even with two fingers, Matt Garrison has a disturbing amount of extraneous noise going on for someone who is touted as being at the cutting edge of bass as an instrument. Tony Grey isn't far behind that either, have a listen to his solo on album version of 'Kung Fu World Champion', there's moments of some quite serious lower string ringing. Gary Willis on the other hand I can always trust that his sound will only be what he wants you to hear.

On the other hand, that does encourage me to not get too hung up on extreme muting analness

Mark

[XB26354]

Great post Mark.
I was thinking about classical music instruments. Piano, for example, uses the most efficient and ergonomic playing position and technique of all instruments. one finger makes one note, and all the notes are there in front of you (notice that you don't sit on a chair as it makes you slouch!). All good teachers look for uncomfortable positioning, tension in the student's body and and inefficent technique.The bass is much less efficient as an instrument - you have to fret a string with one hand and pluck it with the other. However the playing position should not be any less comfortable. In his 101 tips for bass and his video, Gary Wills points out that practicing seated with the bass on your right leg distorts your whole body and makes you bend your right wrist. So, having a lightweight bass, sitting on a stool or high chair instead of a low chair (which stops you from slouching), then having the bass hang in the middle with the neck angling upmakes everything slip back into alignment - the right wrist is straight, the right and left shoulders and arms move into a more natural position (the left wrist doesn't lock out sideways like with a very high strap). In this position you can play with 2, 3, or 4 fingers, floating or anchored thumb and still be in alignment.

The common argument against this is that there are many fantastic players that use traditional technique, and they didn't need to do this "fancy stuff". However, how good could they have got with effortless technique? Ivor Mairants was a fantastic jazz guitarist with a very light, fluid (floating) right hand technique - he was a classical guitarist first. After a gig back in the 50's, Wes Montgomery (who was on the same bill) came up to him and said "man, your technique looks so easy, I wish I'd learned from you". Even though Wes was a fabulous player, like all great musicians he realised that his technique limited his ability to play what he could hear in his head.

I really look forward to all your comments and opinions about all this technique craziness, plus any refinements you have discovered and would care to pass on.
Mat

Edited May 25, 2008 by XB26354

[XB26354]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='205792' date='May 25 2008, 01:12 AM']Jackson is one of my faves too, very individual but classic at the same time. Glamour profession on Steely Dan's Goucho is a killer line, especially as for large parts of it there is a synth on the one and the bass plays the line 'off it'.
I am also a v big Jimmy Johnson fan. He has an incredibly light right hand technique, with one of the most consistent tones in the biz IMO.
Jake[/quote]
Hi Jake, I just transcribed that for a student, a wicked line and I had to listen to it a few times to realise he wasn't playing on the one - that line where it goes G7-F7-Eb7-Db7 and he plays 3rd-root-5th-root-3rd-root-5th-root is as simple as, yet genius!
Move Me No Mountain on Naughty is a masterpiece (and bloody hard to play with a pick!). And El Realejo on Rendezvous just makes my jaw drop every time I hear it.
Yet when you see him live you can't believe he can play so accurately, evenly and quickly with his technique, and he looks so uncomfortable too!

[mcgraham]

Thanks Mat! It's good to read yours too, sounds like we've arrived at quite similar opinions from our respective start points; glad to see there's someone else who takes the same view as me!

With regard to the classical guitar sitting position I [i]totally[/i] agree. I don't understand how I, or anyone else, could ever have coped playing with the bass on their plucking hand side. Whilst I tend to stand to practice, when revamping my technique (at the start of, always ongoing) I practiced seated like Willis advocates.

However, I found that the complete classical positioning i.e. bass locked between left leg & right leg and coupled with arm positioning was too high for comfort. Not in terms of access to the frets (which is obviously great when worn high), but I felt a noticeable tension (or at least restriction) in my arms when they were bent at less than 90' due to the high seating of the bass. So I opted for a different approach. It's hard to explain concisely, but I'll try. Imagine Willis's seating with feet flat on the floor, but then sling them back under the chair slightly, so instead of your thighs being parallel with the floor they are inclined at... perhaps... 60' to it? round about that mark. Then adjust the strap on your bass so that the bass is positioned by your thighs (as before) but almost totally supported by the strap. Does that make sense? I found that this approach greatly relieved the perceived restriction in my arms due to the lower seating of the bass, whilst maintaining the position of the bass wherein it is more parallel with your body (from above) and at a 'more correct' angle (from the front), thus providing correct and easy posture. Like you say, straight wrist, floating thumb (or anchored) is easy on the right hand AND 1-2-3-4 fingering doesn't cause a bent wrist on the left hand.

I think that the adjustment I went for is a good compromise for how my body behaves (i.e. the restriction in the arms) and what I perceive to be the (generally) correct technique to aim for.

Let me know if any of that doesn't make sense!

Mark

Edited May 25, 2008 by mcgraham

[XB26354]

You read my mind Mark! I'm off next weekend to get a stool so that I can drop my legs down a bit further out of the way and have the bass in a more comfortable position. Problem is I've now realised how neck-heavy the Yamaha is
So the next thing is to start hassling bass builders to make instruments that actually balance! Even with light tuners most 5 and 6 strings have got massive neck dive. This is even worse than a heavy bass as all the strain hits your left shoulder, which must be compensated for by holding the body down with right forearm - try playing floating thumb or Willis style like that! I guess the real answer is a headless bass, but most players don't like the look, so I guess a small headstock, light neck wood and slightly heavier and solid body wood, plus a meaty bridge and ultra-light tuners is the way to go...

[mcgraham]

Great minds think alike ... but fools seldom differ?

I did it when I was at uni. I used to sit in the Warwick Arts Centre with my bass (or guitar!) and a Pandora and practice between lectures, but I needed to sit rather than stand, and not all chairs were as good as stools, so I adjusted it for that. It meant I got hours and hours in every day and you only feel self conscious for while.

I agree about the neck dive issue with most basses, although proper positioning at least when seated seems to help. My Geddy had only slight neckdive, but it was enough to irritate me seeing as it was my main bass, all the little things count as you know. I shifted the strap pin about 2-3 inches around towards the top (when strapped on) which helped a little, but the new neck has 3 over 1 tuning arrangement ala musicman with ultralite tuners. It now balances perfectly with even a slippery strap.

Mark

[jakenewmanbass]

I have an Alembic 5 string signature model with whats called a 'balance K' body shape and it just sits perfectly at 2 o'clock. It is heavy but a wide strap means it isn't uncomfortable. I can play with very relaxed hand position in both hands.

[mcgraham]

I think I know which shape you're referring to, it's a very elegant shape... and the fact that it's an Alembic doesn't exactly inhibit it's desirability There's quite substantial mass to the bottom of the bass (near the bridge) is there not?

Mark

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='206943' date='May 26 2008, 11:25 PM']I think I know which shape you're referring to, it's a very elegant shape... and the fact that it's an Alembic doesn't exactly inhibit it's desirability There's quite substantial mass to the bottom of the bass (near the bridge) is there not?

Mark[/quote]

There is Mark, so it is quite weighty but with a wide strap and the excellent balance it has it doesn't really tell.
Jake

oh and thanks

[XB26354]

I also found that, although prohibitively expensive, Fodera 6 singlecuts have absolutely perfect balance seated or standing - in fact they are [i]body[/i] heavy - you have to use a strap or the body will slide off the right side of your leg (if you're right-handed)...

[Jobiebass]

i was pretty sure I asked this question but cant find it anywhere in this thread.

I play Floating thumb, works great for me, helps me mute strings, keep the same speed and helps with volume too. Started taking lessons after nearly 3 years and my teacher says I need to keep it anchored on the E string or Pup if im playing the E string, this is unless its a fast song then floating thumb is perfect.
Doing that it has thrown me off everything, so much unwanted string noice. I cant keep rythem, some strings are louder then the others now too. Do I keep up with Floating thumb or do I learn his way and get better at it? doing it his way feels like the day I stoped using a pick and started with my fingers, I feel so uncomfortable and frustrating when I cant play easy songs well.