lanark Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Yeah, I know it's a kind of how long is a piece of string question, but I've just acquired an Ashdown Mag200 15" combo with a 15" ext cab and I was wondering - from all your experience - how flexible this is likely to be for me in gig situations? I bought it hoping that when running through a PA I could DI out and use the combo as a personal backline and use the extra speaker on those occasions when we're having to take our own much smaller PA for vocals, keys and congas so I'm not hogging the output. Having only used a weedy Laney 35w practice amp before this, I'm thoroughly enjoying the extra floor-rumbling power of an amp that's almost as tall as me (although I AM very small), but (and here's the reason behind my question). We invited a friend over with his PA to try out mixing at our last rehearsal and when I was plugged in he wanted the output from my amp turned all the way up - which seemed odd to me. Does this sound normal behaviour? How would others expect a setup this size to be plumbed into a PA system? - (adding that I know that the amo itself isn't massively powered) Thanks in advance for any comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Your amp should have a line out, or DI out, or pre-amp out, or something, that the soundman uses to DI your bass from the pre-amp to the desk. If not, he needs a DI box which you put before your amp in the chain. Unless he's micing your amp, he doesn't need to mess with the output volume on your amp. The output on the amp is YOUR level. The fader on the mixer is HIS level. Not sure if i've explained that properly but yeh, i'd never run an amp head at max volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanark Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 [quote name='cheddatom' post='749399' date='Feb 18 2010, 10:51 AM']Your amp should have a line out, or DI out, or pre-amp out, or something, that the soundman uses to DI your bass from the pre-amp to the desk. If not, he needs a DI box which you put before your amp in the chain.[/quote] It has a line out and a DI socket - he used the line out as he only had jack plug leads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moos3h Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 That should produce plenty of volume, no worries there. I can't see it being likely that you can't hear yourself... You should use the DI output without doubt in future, they sound great! Cheers, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 [quote name='lanark' post='749484' date='Feb 18 2010, 11:50 AM']It has a line out and a DI socket - he used the line out as he only had jack plug leads.[/quote] The master volume knob shouldn't affect the line-out level. Only the input volume knob will affect this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanark Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 [quote name='cheddatom' post='749517' date='Feb 18 2010, 12:06 PM']The master volume knob shouldn't affect the line-out level. Only the input volume knob will affect this.[/quote] That's pretty much what I thought - but had I cranked the Input knob all the way up it would have distorted horribly. Weird - as it's the trombonist's dad, we're almost certainly going to be using him at some point because he'll come cheaper than hiring an outside company, but I think that next time I'll ignore whatever he says and set the input at a reasonable level so it's not clipping the red and let him set the mix in ignorance of what I've done with my controls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliswasp Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Hi there i just bought myself a 300w combo and 15 extention cab and i took it back after my first gig it judt didnt cut the mustard as far as i am conserned. i had it a whole two days the shop were good about it and i opted for the 600w head and a seperate 210 cab and kept my 15 cab. i would think that the 200w would sreiously struggle to be honest especially driving two 15 drivers it really does depend on how power hungry the two units are i guess. does the extention cab have a power rating on the back to give you an idea of what you would need to run them both? Markus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliswasp Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 when using the amp in a line out situation if he wants you to turn up turn the input volume up making sure you dont head in to the red to much if you touch it occasionally thats fine but stay out of it the best you can if he wants more volume tell him to turn the channel up on his desk but as stated above always try to use the DI socket it is the best way by far of getting the best from your amp in to a PA system and if you are going to be using a PA system for most gigs then that shdown rig will do you just fine. we dont have a PA system for all our instruments just for vocals and the bass drum so i need a fair amount of power just to be heard the 300w i had did the job but i had to have the poor thing all the way up just to keep up so i chopped it in for the 600 to have some head room. Markus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanark Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 [quote name='elliswasp' post='750105' date='Feb 18 2010, 07:22 PM']Does the extention cab have a power rating on the back to give you an idea of what you would need to run them both? Markus[/quote] Well the cab is the Mag115 so it's designed to go with the combo so I'd assume that it can handle it (although perhaps best not to assume anything really lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliswasp Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Yeah what i was getting at is that i believe the 15" cabs are around the 250w mark and if the one in the combo is too then your asking alot from a 200w amp to drive them to any great extent. Markus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 the internal speaker is 8ohms and the ashdown only develops it's rated output into 4 ohms. It is designed to work with the extra cab so no worries. Your sound man may have wanted things up high for two reasons. If you put out the bass through the stack and keep it out of the PA and monitors it reduces the demand on the PA and can clean up the sound. Alternatively he may have just wanted a high level feed to the mixer because it reduces noise and/or the mixer lacked an input which was sensitive enough for the feed. The line out on an Ashdown is only at mic level and a lot of cheap mixers only have a limited no of mic pre amps to keep costs down. The line out on my Ashdown is at quite a low level. In other words he wanted it turned up at the mixer but not necessarily on stage. An Ashdown giving 200W into 2x15 should be loud enough to drown out the drummer unless you are cutting the mids and boosting the bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protium Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 [quote name='elliswasp' post='750105' date='Feb 18 2010, 07:22 PM']Hi there i just bought myself a 300w combo and 15 extention cab and i took it back after my first gig it judt didnt cut the mustard as far as i am conserned. i had it a whole two days the shop were good about it and i opted for the 600w head and a seperate 210 cab and kept my 15 cab. i would think that the 200w would sreiously struggle to be honest especially driving two 15 drivers it really does depend on how power hungry the two units are i guess. does the extention cab have a power rating on the back to give you an idea of what you would need to run them both? Markus[/quote] I have run a 300W head into just a single 15 before with no volume issues. 200W into a pair of 15's should be plenty loud for most gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanark Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 [quote name='Phil Starr' post='752000' date='Feb 20 2010, 06:05 PM']the internal speaker is 8ohms and the ashdown only develops it's rated output into 4 ohms. It is designed to work with the extra cab so no worries. Your sound man may have wanted things up high for two reasons. If you put out the bass through the stack and keep it out of the PA and monitors it reduces the demand on the PA and can clean up the sound. Alternatively he may have just wanted a high level feed to the mixer because it reduces noise and/or the mixer lacked an input which was sensitive enough for the feed. The line out on an Ashdown is only at mic level and a lot of cheap mixers only have a limited no of mic pre amps to keep costs down. The line out on my Ashdown is at quite a low level. In other words he wanted it turned up at the mixer but not necessarily on stage. An Ashdown giving 200W into 2x15 should be loud enough to drown out the drummer unless you are cutting the mids and boosting the bass[/quote] So your reccomendation is to insist he use the balanced DI socket instead of the line out unless he has a damn good reason not to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliswasp Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='Protium' post='752009' date='Feb 20 2010, 06:17 PM']I have run a 300W head into just a single 15 before with no volume issues. 200W into a pair of 15's should be plenty loud for most gigs.[/quote] Well i dont know what to tell you but the 300w combo i had running a 115 ex cab didnt do the job for me at all i was disapointed to say the least i thought it would happily do the job but it just didnt and i have to say im not the first to have said it. I do wonder if runing the two cabs was a bit much for it or somethig, i really dont know but i stand by my comment in a largish venue i think it would struggle to keep up if manage it at all but there are lots of variables to take in to consideration like what bass is used how loud the rest of the band is and size of regular venues played in so if you mainly play medium sized pubs then it may well do you nicely but in a venue the size of the one i played in recently which i wouldn't call huge by any means my rig struggled i had the thing right up all night and that was just to be heard so it went back and i bought a louder amp and im waiting to see what happens with that one. Markus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 You shouldn't get too carried away with the wattage. 600w is 3db louder than 300w, all other things being equal - that's about the minimum increase in volume that most people would even recognise as being louder in a real world situation. It's more likely that the increased midrange output of the 10"s is cutting through the mix better, and so appears to be louder. Though sometimes you only need a mere touch more volume to hear yourself properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliswasp Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 yeaj i know there isnt a great deal of difference in actuall listening volume when it comes to amps being twice the wattage its something like a 10% increase or so apposed to double which is what lot of people think because the wattage has doubled im hoping that i wont need any more than that as im not really prepared to spend any more money if its still not loud enough im gonna be a little stumped i guess it will be the drivers il have to change or something. heres hoping not im rather hoping it was more to do with the venue than anything else. Big open space with really high celings cant be good im sure? Markus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanark Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 Ashdown are confusing me: the "high instrument input" is for passive basses and the "low instrument input" is for active basses? How counter-intuitive is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protium Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 [quote name='lanark' post='755133' date='Feb 23 2010, 04:07 PM']Ashdown are confusing me: the "high instrument input" is for passive basses and the "low instrument input" is for active basses? How counter-intuitive is that?[/quote] High input impedance is ~4megohms (4'000'000 ohms) Low input impedance is ~10 kilohms (10'000 ohms) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) [quote name='lanark' post='752223' date='Feb 20 2010, 09:12 PM']So your reccomendation is to insist he use the balanced DI socket instead of the line out unless he has a damn good reason not to?[/quote] If you've got a balanced input then it is best to stick to the balanced output because it will pick up less electrical interference and be cleaner but I was just imagining, having been a sound man for several years that he was being asked for more 'level' rather than actually to be louder. It was just a thought. [quote name='elliswasp' post='753798' date='Feb 22 2010, 01:38 PM']yeaj i know there isnt a great deal of difference in actuall listening volume when it comes to amps being twice the wattage its something like a 10% increase or so apposed to double which is what lot of people think because the wattage has doubled im hoping that i wont need any more than that as im not really prepared to spend any more money if its still not loud enough im gonna be a little stumped i guess it will be the drivers il have to change or something. heres hoping not im rather hoping it was more to do with the venue than anything else. Big open space with really high celings cant be good im sure? Markus[/quote] Fortunately adding the extra cab gives you an extra 6dB because not only does the amp give more power but the speakers increased surface area improves its mechanical coupling to the air making it louder. basically at low frequencies more of the speakers energy goes into making sound rather than just stirring the air. If you are going through the PA then the only reason you need an amp at all is so that you and the other band members can hear what you are playing on stage. Your set up really should be loud enough. Even if your 15's are very inefficient at say 94 dB/w then two with 200W through them will produce peaks of 120dB which means you could easily play at an average level of 100dB which is loud enough to cause permanent hearing loss if you keep it up for long. If you are having trouble hearing then try this: turn down the bass a little (10-11 o'clock on the Ashdown) this will allow your amp to go up a bit before it clips which means you can have more of everything else. Try gently boosting the mids which is what you hear more clearly when everyone else is going. If the Ashdown is the Evo model then use a bit of compression which moves the average level a bit closer to the peaks and makes everything sound louder just like the ads on TV sound louder than the programs. Edited February 24, 2010 by Phil Starr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliswasp Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='Phil Starr' post='755681' date='Feb 24 2010, 12:01 AM']Fortunately adding the extra cab gives you an extra 6dB because not only does the amp give more power but the speakers increased surface area improves its mechanical coupling to the air making it louder. basically at low frequencies more of the speakers energy goes into making sound rather than just stirring the air. If you are going through the PA then the only reason you need an amp at all is so that you and the other band members can hear what you are playing on stage. Your set up really should be loud enough. Even if your 15's are very inefficient at say 94 dB/w then two with 200W through them will produce peaks of 120dB which means you could easily play at an average level of 100dB which is loud enough to cause permanent hearing loss if you keep it up for long. If you are having trouble hearing then try this: turn down the bass a little (10-11 o'clock on the Ashdown) this will allow your amp to go up a bit before it clips which means you can have more of everything else. Try gently boosting the mids which is what you hear more clearly when everyone else is going. If the Ashdown is the Evo model then use a bit of compression which moves the average level a bit closer to the peaks and makes everything sound louder just like the ads on TV sound louder than the programs.[/quote] i had two cabs before so my setup speaker wise is exactly the same as it is now but even with both cabs running and the amps volume level all the way up it still wasnt loud enough really. i mean it was but only just the needle on the vu was just bouncing in to the red on occasion i had already turned the bass down a little and i really coudln't get any more out of it i just hope the new amp will be sufficient enough to do the job. as i said before i do wonder if that particular venue was more of a problem than hte amp as it was a very strange size and shape so i suppose its quite possible that the rooms accoustic properties were not helping either that or i might have had a duff amp i suppose anything is possible il have to wait untill i next get to use the new one fingers crossed Markus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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