Soundproofing advice

[jakenewmanbass]

Ok Guys I have been reading the pages in this forum with interest and from time to time I've gathered that some of you have experience of creating recording spaces. So I'm looking for general advice for soundproofing my garage for recording and for the kids to practise in. It's going to be a one room thing with no control room and I'll be using mac and logic (pretty mobile)
I want a corner of the room with a desk, the rest some shelving for storage and a live area. I have a garage about 25'x12' I intend to dry line it and build a stud wall 5 foot into it with a door through to the space, the 5 foot bit being storage for my wifes business equipment.
I have a load of rockwool that I got cheap in a focus sale so that will be my main material for gap filling. I'm looking for advice about what materials to make the dry walls with. Any suggestions are welcome I'm open to anything and cheap and cheerful is the order of the day...

I will be using some baffles and the like to create a bit of isolation when recording...

Edited February 22, 2010 by jakesbass

[escholl]

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Home-Recording-Studio-Construction-Build/dp/1598630342/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266593305&sr=1-3"]Buy this book.[/url] Seriously. I know it's not that cheap, but, in the long run it will save you time, money, and tears. Even if all you do is a relatively inexpensive soundproof of the garage, you will still want to get the most for your money.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='escholl' post='754065' date='Feb 22 2010, 05:05 PM'][url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Home-Recording-Studio-Construction-Build/dp/1598630342/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266593305&sr=1-3"]Buy this book.[/url] Seriously. I know it's not that cheap, but, in the long run it will save you time, money, and tears. Even if all you do is a relatively inexpensive soundproof of the garage, you will still want to get the most for your money.[/quote]
Thanks for that, can I ask why that one in particular? I noticed there are a few, have you used that yourself, or had it recommended?
Cheers
Jake

[51m0n]

Rule 1
Its all about mass - 2 or 3 layers of plasterboard on the inner wall each layer at rightangles to the last

Rule 2
No Gaps. Absolutely none, sound will get out of any gaps you have, so each layer of plasterboard needs to be fully caulked and glued (green goop stuff is good)

Rule 3
HEAVY doors, two of them, sealed

Rule 4
Things like airflow, power etc require proper thought so buy the book above!

Rule 5
You know its right when people are asphyxiated inside....

Rule 6
Talk to Rimskidog on here he knows a thing or two about building [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=49754&hl="]live rooms[/url]. [url="http://www.avforums.com/"]AV forums[/url] are an absolute gold mine of great info and clever people.

[escholl]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='754148' date='Feb 22 2010, 06:13 PM']Thanks for that, can I ask why that one in particular? I noticed there are a few, have you used that yourself, or had it recommended?
Cheers
Jake[/quote]

That is one that I have personally used, it's an easy read and has lots of illustrations, but includes all the important technical bits you'll want to know. I can't vouch for the others though I'm sure there are some other good ones out there.

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='51m0n' post='754171' date='Feb 22 2010, 06:25 PM']Rule 1
Its all about mass - 2 or 3 layers of plasterboard on the inner wall each layer at rightangles to the last

Rule 2
No Gaps. Absolutely none, sound will get out of any gaps you have, so each layer of plasterboard needs to be fully caulked and glued (green goop stuff is good)

Rule 3
HEAVY doors, two of them, sealed

Rule 4
Things like airflow, power etc require proper thought so buy the book above!

Rule 5
You know its right when people are asphyxiated inside....

Rule 6
Talk to Rimskidog on here he knows a thing or two about building [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=49754&hl="]live rooms[/url]. [url="http://www.avforums.com/"]AV forums[/url] are an absolute gold mine of great info and clever people.[/quote]

51mon has it about right. Am happy to add some texture to his post with some build techniques, suggestions about how to add cheap mass and the like but the key question really is what your budget is and how soundproof does it need to be. You can spend a lot of money for the last 20% in this game.

EDIT: as an aside I have a range of books on soundproofing and acoustics. pm me if you are interested.

EDIT 2: oh yeah, and putting your desk in the corner is a very bad idea indeed.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Rimskidog

[mep]

[quote name='51m0n' post='754171' date='Feb 22 2010, 06:25 PM']Rule 1
Its all about mass - 2 or 3 layers of plasterboard on the inner wall each layer at rightangles to the last

Rule 2
No Gaps. Absolutely none, sound will get out of any gaps you have, so each layer of plasterboard needs to be fully caulked and glued (green goop stuff is good)

Rule 3
HEAVY doors, two of them, sealed

Rule 4
Things like airflow, power etc require proper thought so buy the book above!

Rule 5
You know its right when people are asphyxiated inside....

Rule 6
Talk to Rimskidog on here he knows a thing or two about building [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=49754&hl="]live rooms[/url]. [url="http://www.avforums.com/"]AV forums[/url] are an absolute gold mine of great info and clever people.[/quote]

Good stuff here. Couple of extra points.

The layers of plasterboard need to overlap so the joints are not in the same place. I think that what he was getting at.

Use British Gypsum SoundBloc and/or Plank plasterboard.

Put some proper acoustic insulation behind the plasterboard. Rockwool slab or similar, do not use thermal insulation like in your loft.

Set your new walls off from the existing ones at least 50mm and only fix the studs to the floor and roof. You can run your services in this gap.

If you have space set the shorter ends walls at an angle less than 90 degrees to the long ones to reduce reverberation.

You will still need to reduce reverberation with all that hard plasterboard. Cheap options are areas of carpet or egg boxes.

Don't forget about the roof, do the same as the walls.

[Rimskidog]

That was all good until this point:

[quote name='mep' post='755523' date='Feb 23 2010, 09:22 PM']Cheap options are areas of carpet or egg boxes.

Don't forget about the roof, do the same as the walls.[/quote]

Carpet sucks the high frequencies out of a room and makes it sound even more dull and boxlike than it already is. Carpet is bad. As for eggboxes, well, their great... for holding eggs. As acoustic treatment they are hopeless (if not worse). Am happy to provide advice on acoustic treatment on down the line as required. Much of the requirement for acoustic treeatment will be reduced if you get the design right from the outset.

[Sonic_Groove]

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='755620' date='Feb 23 2010, 10:52 PM']That was all good until this point:



Carpet sucks the high frequencies out of a room and makes it sound even more dull and boxlike than it already is. Carpet is bad. As for eggboxes, well, their great... for holding eggs. As acoustic treatment they are hopeless (if not worse). Am happy to provide advice on acoustic treatment on down the line as required. Much of the requirement for acoustic treeatment will be reduced if you get the design right from the outset.[/quote]

So is it best not to carpet the floor? (I am just about to carpet my studio room floor, its laminate at the moment) would save me some money...

Brendan

[mep]

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='755620' date='Feb 23 2010, 10:52 PM']That was all good until this point:



Carpet sucks the high frequencies out of a room and makes it sound even more dull and boxlike than it already is. Carpet is bad. As for eggboxes, well, their great... for holding eggs. As acoustic treatment they are hopeless (if not worse). Am happy to provide advice on acoustic treatment on down the line as required. Much of the requirement for acoustic treeatment will be reduced if you get the design right from the outset.[/quote]

That was the cheap and nasty option for reducing reverb. What's a good option, is it the pointy foam on the walls? as it's about deflecting the sound path.

My comment about the roof being the same as the walls was to use plasterboard and insulation behind, not additional carpet and egg boxes.

I suppose the thing about reverb is to see what you are dealing with when the room is kitted out and then make any provisions to deal with it effectively. I'm sure you'll get some good advice on dowm the line.

[51m0n]

Ooooh boy.

Sound 'proofing' is one thing (and seriously, to make it truly sound proof is beyond your budget, but you can at least make it useable without the neighbours knowing its not a stereo).

Room treatment is a lot more complex, I await Rimskidogs later posts with interest

Oh and my point about the plasterboard layers being at right angles to each other means the joints should never overlap, but make sure they dont! If layer one has the long edge vertical, layer 2 should have the long edge horizontal and not have edges that line up with layer 1 edges. layer 3 would then have the long edge vertical again, and not have edges that line up with layer 2 (and if you can do it layer 1). All caulked and green gooped together. Luveerrly!

And, as has been stated they should be attached to studs a good distance off the walls, ideally none of the inner walls should be parallel, even a couple of inches off through the length of the wall will do it. This will help with sorting the acoustics after the soundproofing has taken place.

There are also rubbery products out there to rest your walls and studs on to help prevent transfer from the floor. Not sure how much real added benefit they will give you over a good caulking to be honest.

[51m0n]

Oh yes one more point about the plasterboard.

Start on a different wall each time so that the joints int the corners interlace too. Otherwise the corner becomes one big edge, and bang goes your sound proofing....

[farmer61]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='753911' date='Feb 22 2010, 03:13 PM']Ok Guys I have been reading the pages in this forum with interest and from time to time I've gathered that some of you have experience of creating recording spaces. So I'm looking for general advice for soundproofing my garage for recording and for the kids to practise in. It's going to be a one room thing with no control room and I'll be using mac and logic (pretty mobile)
I want a corner of the room with a desk, the rest some shelving for storage and a live area. I have a garage about 25'x12' I intend to dry line it and build a stud wall 5 foot into it with a door through to the space, the 5 foot bit being storage for my wifes business equipment.
I have a load of rockwool that I got cheap in a focus sale so that will be my main material for gap filling. I'm looking for advice about what materials to make the dry walls with. Any suggestions are welcome I'm open to anything and cheap and cheerful is the order of the day...

I will be using some baffles and the like to create a bit of isolation when recording...[/quote]

HEATING

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='farmer61' post='756257' date='Feb 24 2010, 05:04 PM']HEATING [/quote]
LOL
I was considering refrigeration actually just to test my students at sub zero temps....

Thanks for all the info guys, all very interesting. I'm not concerned about total silence, more to give my neighbours a bit of protection. Being a muso I can record during the day and it's pretty quiet around my way... (apart from the occasional Chinook)

[51m0n]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='756295' date='Feb 24 2010, 06:02 PM']LOL
I was considering refrigeration actually just to test my students at sub zero temps....

Thanks for all the info guys, all very interesting. I'm not concerned about total silence, more to give my neighbours a bit of protection. Being a muso I can record during the day and it's pretty quiet around my way... (apart from the occasional Chinook)[/quote]

Are they going to be playing rock drums?

Are they going to 'give it some' with bass?

If either of th above is a yes, then you will really need at least the two layers (and preferably the three) of plasterboard IME.

Comments about the roof of this inner space are all valid too, I worked in a few studios where they lined the roof of the live room with 4 tonnes of sand (and that was a smaller room than the one you are talking about). Largely as it was a basement next to a road and the bus noise was unreal through the vocal mics , but you get my drift!

A couple of layers of plasterboard on the ceiling will deal with the worst of it though...

[Rimskidog]

@jakesbass - a good place to start would be to download sketchup (free from google) and do a rough draft of your proposed room including placement of everything from walls to furniture. We can then make suggestions to the initial design and help you move forward at each stage. (Might be an enlightening thread for some poeple here too)

Another good place to look is the studio acoustics and build section on Gearslutz: [url="http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-construction-acoustics/"]http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-cons...tion-acoustics/[/url] . They arent all big commercial spaces and a number include people converting similar spaces to your own. The key point to note is that wherever you see eggboxes, carpet or foam covered walls, move on to the next one.

[4-string-thing]

I did a similar thing about 10 years ago with pretty good results. I had 2 rooms though, knocked through, put in sliding glass doors and offered my services as a demo studio. As most people have said, you won't soundproof a garage, all you can do is try to reduce the leakage as much as possible. Sound proofing is not the same as acoustic treatment.

As stated, its all about mass and isolation, sound travels through walls, doors etc by vibration, so the "room within a room" is the thing to aim for.

Using Rockwool slabs as opposed to roof insulation is good, the more dense, the better. If you use 3 layers for your walls, I think I read somewhere once, that the middle layer should be a different material to the outer two? Joins should not be in the same place and should always be caulked. Windows should be boarded up and rockwool packed between the boards. The roof is probably the hardest bit, if its not an internal garage, it will need loads of rockwool and boarding with a plasterboard/chipboard/plasterboard layer.

The garage doors will also need a similar thing, the 5ft space you mentioned is good, I did the same for storage of all my studio kit that I didn't want on display (mic stands etc)

It all sounds quite daunting and a lot of work, but it is possible to reduce the noise outside to something thats barely noticable. It helped in my case that there was a 20 yard gap to my next door neighbour and we lived on a fairly busy road with a bit of traffic noise. I recorded quite a few loud bands in my place and never had any complaints from neighbours.

[jakenewmanbass]

Just a quick further question for you guys on this, I am just beginning to clear out the space that I will be using and I was going to take some doors to the tip. I just thought I'd ask before I bin them, if they would be any use as panels with rockwool and muslin (I have about a cubic mile of rockwool that I got for a pound a roll at focus)
Should the doors stay or go fellas, they are the pressed fibre board ones with eight square panels, NOT wood.

(could they be used like plaster board panels?)

willing to be shot down here, just applying the old waste not want not adage...

Edited March 12, 2010 by jakesbass

[51m0n]

Are they very dense?

If so then its possible they may be useful, if not they are a waste of space.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='51m0n' post='772858' date='Mar 12 2010, 03:28 PM']Are they very dense?

If so then its possible they may be useful, if not they are a waste of space.[/quote]
Nah Si, not dense at all, which is what I suspected would be the question...
Tip it is!

[51m0n]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='772889' date='Mar 12 2010, 03:55 PM']Nah Si, not dense at all, which is what I suspected would be the question...
Tip it is![/quote]

You may find a use for them if are treating the room. Not as treatment per se, but as a way of building some big ole bass traps (you'd have to drill alot of holes in them though. To be honest its probably just not worth the hastle!

Did you manage your full 5 hours today? ( Lucky git - I've been reviewing stock file specifications today, that is [b]not[/b] rock'n'roll )

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='51m0n' post='772904' date='Mar 12 2010, 04:12 PM']You may find a use for them if are treating the room. Not as treatment per se, but as a way of building some big ole bass traps (you'd have to drill alot of holes in them though. To be honest its probably just not worth the hastle!

Did you manage your full 5 hours today? ( Lucky git - I've been reviewing stock file specifications today, that is [b]not[/b] rock'n'roll )[/quote]
ahh lol...
It's a busy time of year for me as a very keen veg gardener so that competes with my playing time in spring... so I did an hour sight reading and then some impro practice before breakfast. I did a DB warm up session too as I have a nice Jazz gig this evening (which I count in my daily playing) So I'l end up at about 4 hrs in all today...

and the doors are on their way to the tip.

[51m0n]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='772982' date='Mar 12 2010, 05:27 PM']ahh lol...
It's a busy time of year for me as a very keen veg gardener so that competes with my playing time in spring... so I did an hour sight reading and then some impro practice before breakfast. I did a DB warm up session too as I have a nice Jazz gig this evening (which I count in my daily playing) So I'l end up at about 4 hrs in all today...

and the doors are on their way to the tip. [/quote]

Envy is not a pleasant thing

[Rimskidog]

man. Five hours a day of bass playing. Sweet memories. I might manage 5 hours a week if I'm lucky nowadays...

[escholl]

[quote name='escholl' post='754278' date='Feb 22 2010, 07:40 PM']That is one that I have personally used, it's an easy read and has lots of illustrations, but includes all the important technical bits you'll want to know. I can't vouch for the others though I'm sure there are some other good ones out there.[/quote]

By the way, I've just remembered the author of that book is the moderator of this forum [url="http://recording.org/studio-construction-forum/"]here[/url]. Not that we here can't help you, but I would recommend browsing that forum as well, and possibly explaining the situation over there to see what (other) people think.