Bass guitarists taking up DB

[thisnameistaken]

I'm really enjoying the sound and feel of DB but I am currently disappointed that I'm not physically up to the job of playing it. I'm struggling with left arm stamina (either my hand starting to cramp a bit from the stretch in lower positions or my whole arm getting tired from holding it up), and I've found that I often get aches in my lower back, not from leaning over or bad posture particularly but I think from being tense and constantly adjusting my stance as I get used to holding the thing.

Any advice for getting over these bugbears or is it just a case of practicing until I can play for longer / get more comfortable with it?

The guy who sold me the bass suggested we have a little jam today and I had to turn him down because I just can't play it for more than a couple of minutes at a time without having to stop and rest either my arm or back briefly.

[jakenewmanbass]

First things first...
I don't want to be alarmist, but you have no frame of reference coming from BG as to whether or not your posture is correct, this could lead to injury so caution is required. I think it's safe to assume that if the pains you are getting are anything over and above tiredness then your posture and technique are [i]at least[/i] sub optimal. I use that terminology because optimising is exactly what you want to do to get the most out of your muscles and of course this is a new set of tasks for them.
In a nutshell...
Get some lessons.

and get your LH position as close to this:
[attachment=43316:P1000284.jpg]
as you can

also, check out this thread for more pics and general advice on the same:
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=67545&pid=741820&st=40&#entry741820"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry741820[/url]

Edited February 22, 2010 by jakesbass

[TPJ]

When I recently got back into DB, I just played 10 mins a day every day for a few weeks to build strength. It helps if the bass is set up correctly for you too.
Also, have you had a lesson or two to ensure your technique is ok? Keep at it, it'll come with time.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='754047' date='Feb 22 2010, 04:56 PM']I don't want to be alarmist, but you have no frame of reference coming from BG as to whether or not your posture is correct, this could lead to injury so caution is required. I think it's safe to assume that if the pains you are getting are anything over and above tiredness then your posture and technique are [i]at least[/i] sub optimal. I use that terminology because optimising is exactly what you want to do to get the most out of your muscles and of course this is a new set of tasks for them.[/quote]

I think my arm is definitely just tired/cramping but I will look into it. Any other thumb position I've tried seems to mean more effort is required to stop notes but maybe I'm missing a trick. My lower back is pretty weak to begin with and it doesn't like having to constantly adjust to balance out upper body movement (I often get the same aches from doing the washing up). I am standing straight through, leaning the bass in towards me a little rather than leaning over to it.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='754047' date='Feb 22 2010, 04:56 PM']In a nutshell...
Get some lessons.[/quote]

I do intend to, it's just finding the time at the moment (and my choice of teacher is even busier it seems).

[quote name='TPJ' post='754049' date='Feb 22 2010, 04:56 PM']When I recently got back into DB, I just played 10 mins a day every day for a few weeks to build strength. It helps if the bass is set up correctly for you too.[/quote]

I don't think I can blame the setup, it's quite low (I can wedge my fingertips between string and fingerboard at the bridge end). I think I'll just have to try what you did - short and frequent practise times. It's frustrating though because I often have to go away for a couple of days and I feel like I end up back at square one. Grr.

Edit: Jake I will have a proper look at your left hand position photos this evening, thanks for that.

Edited February 22, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[macmellus]

I've had mine since September and thought it'd had been a great mistake for the first three months. I used to get pains in my back and elsewhere, because it was so much effort getting the fingering right I'd start to tense up and lose my posture without realising. Got cramp in my hand easily also. I think I didn't bother with it for a whole month.
I've relaxed into now, and have got to the point where I'm not really worrying about the technique. I flit between lazy technique to good technique, as I now know when it's important and when it isn't. I really feel like I'm playing it as a musical instrument now, rather than it being this gym workout machine that i'm obliged to go on, because it cost me so much money.
Don't be dis-heartened if you don't seem to be making any progress. Once you can relax, you'll love it, and everyone will love you, because you play double bass, and they'll want to give you lots of money too.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='macmellus' post='754222' date='Feb 22 2010, 06:53 PM']I really feel like I'm playing it as a musical instrument now, rather than it being this gym workout machine that i'm obliged to go on, because it cost me so much money.[/quote]

Hahaha

[quote name='macmellus' post='754222' date='Feb 22 2010, 06:53 PM']Don't be dis-heartened if you don't seem to be making any progress. Once you can relax, you'll love it, and everyone will love you, because you play double bass, and they'll want to give you lots of money too.[/quote]

The love of everyone in the world will be a decent reward I suppose. Hopefully that also includes physical acts of love from several ladies at once.

Thanks for your post, it's nice to hear from someone who's done it.

[guyl]

You might find that you are approaching DB in the same way that you play BG.

It's easy to try to be too busy on upright. That big bull will sound cool with 1 note a bar. Take it easy! Relax!

+1 for the setup and lesson which could help you more than you ever imagined!

Good luck

[slobluesine]

1. dont give up
2. get a Powerball... [url="http://www.powerballs.com/music.php?m=Benefits"]http://www.powerballs.com/music.php?m=Benefits[/url]
3. go see Jake

not necessarily in that order

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='754047' date='Feb 22 2010, 04:56 PM']also, check out this thread for more pics and general advice on the same:
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=67545&pid=741820&st=40&#entry741820"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry741820[/url][/quote]

OK mister I've tried doing my thumb like what your thumb does and that. It's hard, and it gives me a bit of a crampy feeling in the fleshy bit at the base of my thumb after a while. Originally I was pointing my thumb upwards and it was behind my first finger, which felt more natural.

BUT... I noticed after persevering that my bicep was starting to ache from practicing, so does that mean I'm doing it right (and I have girls biceps)? Is this my arm doing more of the work like you suggested? I've also found I can only use my thumb like that with my wrist straight which I suppose is a good thing too.

[quote name='slobluesine' post='754387' date='Feb 22 2010, 09:11 PM']2. get a Powerball... [url="http://www.powerballs.com/music.php?m=Benefits"]http://www.powerballs.com/music.php?m=Benefits[/url][/quote]

I always figured those were just snake oil filled injury-making devices, are they actually good for something?

[quote name='guyl' post='754340' date='Feb 22 2010, 08:35 PM']You might find that you are approaching DB in the same way that you play BG.

It's easy to try to be too busy on upright. That big bull will sound cool with 1 note a bar. Take it easy! Relax![/quote]

Nah I figured that out early on. Just need to develop good taste now.

I don't seem to hurt as much if my arm keeps moving, it's playing repetitive figures (rocksteady basslines for example) that really make me ache, which is unavoidable because my band wants to go out and do some old rocksteady tunes. Ho hum.

And I think I've figured out that the back ache might be from... dancing! I can't seem to stand still while I'm playing this thing.

[Grambo]

"I don't think I can blame the setup, it's quite low (I can wedge my fingertips between string and fingerboard at the bridge end)."

I should hope so! I don't know how fat your fingers are but, in my experience, coming from Bass guitar you really need the action as low as possible to start with. This will help to avoid straining your muscles while developing a technique. As your body begins to get used to "doing" DB you will find it easier to approach the instrument and will find out what sort of set-up suits your style and the sound you want. Above all - don't be dis-heartened - it's a real slog to make the change, but always worth the effort!

[Greydad]

OK, I bought my first double bass just under 3 weeks ago now. First observations from an electric bassist:

- It's a big b*gger
- my limp-wristed left hand couldn't handle more than 10-15 minutes playing at a time
- I blistered up my right index finger in no time
- it's a completely involving instrument to play

I went to Greg Cordez for a taster lesson before I bought the bass and then a refresher once I'd bought it. He stressed the following:

- Posture - get it right and he showed me how to do this
- Don't forget to breathe!
- Correct left hand position - like gripping a beer can and open those fingers (see Jakes pics)
- keep your left arm up and your wrists in as straight a line as possible, no hooking around the neck
- Work on getting a nice tone out from the right hand (after a while this becomes a bit of a fixation)

No fancy playing, just start with simple chromatic walks at the top of the neck to get used to the spacing and feel of the instrument, check your intonation with a tuner, thank you, off you go Neil.

So that's what I've been doing for the last 2 and a half weeks. Started off with short bursts of 10-15 minutes at a time, but every day, a bit in the morning before work, and again when I came home. Aches and pains did come and go - Greg pointed out this would be a signal that something was wrong so when they start pay attention and correct the problem. Gradually it's got easier and playing the thing has become completely absorbing. Slowly building up strength in the left hand, so now I can play for an hour or so and now I find it's my right hand/index finger that gives up first, especially if I'm playing along with my friend unamplified and I'm trying to make myself heard. Bassace suggests using an amp to practice when you're starting and I know understand why, but I'm going to persevere as I am.

I can now do some basic songs I know and some walking bass lines and slides and a few other bits and pieces. I'm doing some new basslines for a friend of mine who pays acoustic guitar and writes his own music. It's different on a double bass, much more use of open strings and the physicality of it suggests a different approach to an electric. I'm no genius or super talent, I get tired and slow down and miss notes and my intonation is not always right but at least I can hear my mistakes and have got over the first hurdles and am now feeling comfortable playing, in fact enjoying playing it. OK, obsessed with playing, I haven't touched my electrics since.

I couldn't have done that in this space of time without Greg, so I will say the same boring thing everyone else has, go get a teacher as soon as you can.

I have an incentive to practice, though, because I have my first short gig on Thursday - 3 weeks after buying it!

Hope this helps

Neil

[Cat Burrito]

Some great answers here so I'm sure my 2c will pail into insignificance by comparison. Firstly I bought a starting double bass DVD and took on board all the advice (£12 well spent), secondly little and often practice, thirdly get a powerball and finally get a lesson or two. I'm still stuck on 4 and I must pull my finger out. I've gone from not being able to do a whole song to doing 4 gigs this year on it.

[thisnameistaken]

Yeah my index finger's throbbing a bit - haven't had that since I used to play BG with a bad amp...

Looks like little and often is the answer then. I'll have to try getting 2 short practises in each day, see if that accelerates things a bit.

[Doddy]

I wouldn't bother with a powerball personally-they fall into a similar catagory as
hand grips,to me.
You are much better off studying correctly and then practising slowly and accurately.If you
are doing it right,you will gradually and naturally develop more strength in your hands with no pain.If it
hurts,you need to step back and look at what you are doing wrong. Only a teacher will be able to tell
you exactly where you are going wrong.

[Musicman69]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='754611' date='Feb 23 2010, 01:25 AM']Yeah my index finger's throbbing a bit - haven't had that since I used to play BG with a bad amp...

Looks like little and often is the answer then. I'll have to try getting 2 short practises in each day, see if that accelerates things a bit.[/quote]

just 'Man Up' and work at it!
Ah no.. seriously, best of luck and it sounds like youre on the right track.
Certainly getting some good advice from BC.
Bass and drums are as much about stamina as musicality when it comes down to brass tacks. Practise, practise.

[Bilbo]

I had been experiencing that left arm thing you describe: no stamina (like trying any form of work that involves working above your head, the heart has to work harder to get blood to your muscles to give them oxygen). What I noticed last night was that I had the end pin too far out and the bass was higher than it should have been, I was looking at a picture of Dave Holland and realised that I had the nut of the neck about 3 inchs higher than it needed to be (it was level with the top of my head not with my eye line) so I really was playing above my head. So I took it down a few inches and it was easier immediately. Still not a breeze but not nearly as bad as it was.

I guess the point it to listen to your body and, when it complains, analyse why. It is probably something you can do something about with a little thought.

But, yes, lessons are more important with the big fella.

[Stu-khag]

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='754598' date='Feb 23 2010, 12:45 AM']Some great answers here so I'm sure my 2c will pail into insignificance by comparison. Firstly I bought a starting double bass DVD and took on board all the advice (£12 well spent), secondly little and often practice, thirdly get a powerball and finally get a lesson or two. I'm still stuck on 4 and I must pull my finger out. I've gone from not being able to do a whole song to doing 4 gigs this year on it.[/quote]

May I ask which book and dvd you got?
Im in a position at the mo where I could just afford one or two lessons but the nature of my work means my working hours are all over the place so lessons arent really ideal just yet

Edited February 23, 2010 by Stu-khag

[thisnameistaken]

Well my prospective teacher's just been round and I've been sternly reprimanded for my sloppy fingering (unorthodox third finger usage) and had a few other things explained to me. Going to try to get a lesson in next week if he can fit me in, he's also going to bring round a bunch of written material for me to work from. He also thinks he's found a bow for me which he'll be bringing next week if he thinks it's up to snuff. Top guy - so glad I bought from him now and not some random seller I don't know.

He also said Jake's left-hand technique is bang on and exactly the way I should be doing it, so thanks for that Jake.

I'm going to have to be much more disciplined about this than I am with bass guitar that's for sure.

[Plux_the_Duck]

I started last year (about April properly, like lessons and stuff) and it does get easier and less painful as long as you have good hand technique (oo er missus)

I'm still to buy a DB, no funds

but I'm loving it!

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='Doddy' post='754621' date='Feb 23 2010, 02:44 AM']I wouldn't bother with a powerball personally-they fall into a similar catagory as
hand grips,to me.
You are much better off studying correctly and then practising slowly and accurately.If you
are doing it right,you will gradually and naturally develop more strength in your hands with no pain.If it
hurts,you need to step back and look at what you are doing wrong. Only a teacher will be able to tell
you exactly where you are going wrong.[/quote]

I don't know for certain but I suspect Doddy is a better player than me so if I were new to the forum I'd be more guided by this than my powerball corner cutting

[quote name='Stu-khag' post='754927' date='Feb 23 2010, 12:58 PM']May I ask which book and dvd you got?
Im in a position at the mo where I could just afford one or two lessons but the nature of my work means my working hours are all over the place so lessons arent really ideal just yet[/quote]

It was

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Learn-Play-Bass-Upright-Stand-Up-Doghouse-Blurgrass-DVD_W0QQitemZ360201964677QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53ddb5cc85"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Learn-Play-Bass-Upri...=item53ddb5cc85[/url] no book for me

[jakenewmanbass]

Hi TNIT, I see I've missed a couple of posts here but in the interim you've had the info from a teacher, thats great and it's better that you adopt the advice of the person standing in front of you from now as there is no substitute for a proper close up look at your technique. So much can be lost in translation via text but I hope it's been useful so far.
Good luck and feel free to PM me with specific concerns should the need arise (here is fine too but I tend to respond quicker to PM)
Jake

[thisnameistaken]

Thanks Jake, I may well do. Yeah Chris is a good guy to know and I'm really keen to get some proper lessons with him now, he's obviously very disciplined in his approach and hopefully some of that will rub off, he's been very supportive ever since I first called about buying a bass and I think I was really lucky to bump into him last year.

The left-hand technique is the hardest part for me I think, because I taught myself bass guitar, never played any other instrument, never had any formal music education. I've found that the technique you both recommend feels right when I'm doing it but predictably my concentration drifts and I find I slip into bad habits. It's hard to keep all that in mind while still getting used to the scale length, concentrating on intonation and so on.

Still enjoying myself though so it won't be hard to stick at it. I think it will improve my bass guitar playing in a few different respects too. Great instrument and I wish I'd taken it seriously earlier.

Edited February 24, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[Bilbo]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='755732' date='Feb 24 2010, 02:00 AM']I think it will improve my bass guitar playing in a few different respects too.[/quote]

My Wal is SO easy to play now!! Practice on the double bass and then gig on the electric. You'll never moan about stretches ever again!!

[dougal]

[quote name='Doddy' post='754621' date='Feb 23 2010, 02:44 AM']I wouldn't bother with a powerball personally-they fall into a similar catagory as hand grips,to me.[/quote]

I disagree: I find mine most useful in warm-up / cool-down.

Bearing in mind I've been taught to use the weight of the arm & shoulder with the left hand, a lot of the same muscules that are used are elongated & contracted when using a power-ball.

I wouldn't suggest using it as a strengthening exercise: only playing will do that.

[27 frets]

I took up DB just over a year ago, and here's a few of my thoughts on making the switch:

[list]
[/list]Find a good teacher, to get your basic technique and posture right (and to help you develop your technique if you stick with him/her - a good teacher will help you work on the weaknesses as well as the strengths).
[list]
[/list]As with anything, bad habits can be hard to shake off, so it's worth making the effort to get the basics right.
[list]
[/list]Simandl may be an old-fashioned book on technique, but it deals with it methodically (providing you read music).
[list]
[/list]Aim to play with left hand fingertips, not the pads.
[list]
[/list]Sitting on a stool to play may be easier than standing - my teacher recommended about 29" height for a stool, with a foot rest a few inches up for your left foot, to help you cradle the bass, so it balances naturally.
[list]
[/list]Playing with a bow definitely helps develop intonation, even if you're mainly a pizzicato player, as it's easier to hear when it's right/wrong, and a halfway decent bow is well worth the investment - as noted elsewhere on Basschat, Yitamusic on eBay offer reasonable carbon or wood bows at low cost.
[list]
[/list]I did get a lot of cramping early on - though more with the bowing hand than the left hand. Much of that is down to the tension/posture - stamina on DB gets better with experience and feeling more relaxed.

All the best with the DB