Bass guitarists taking up DB

[thisnameistaken]

OK well I'm still trying to concentrate on good technique habits, and things are coming along gradually so I'm pleased with that. Stamina is improving quickly now that I'm making sure I get an hour each day on the bass.

Having a right-hand issue though: I've found I'm anchoring my ring finger on the E string whenever I play any of the higher strings. I've tried to stop doing it but I end up with a bad sound when plucking the A because my finger comes to a stop quite hard against the E and makes a loud thump that interferes with the attack of the note.

Is anchoring my ring finger like this a bad thing to do - should I strive to not do it? I think I do it on bass guitar too, I think that's where it's come from and why I'm having trouble not doing it. It's hard not to do it without curling my third and fourth fingers into my palm (which of course makes moving the other two quite difficult).

[Greydad]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='758574' date='Feb 26 2010, 07:59 PM']OK well I'm still trying to concentrate on good technique habits, and things are coming along gradually so I'm pleased with that. Stamina is improving quickly now that I'm making sure I get an hour each day on the bass.

Having a right-hand issue though: I've found I'm anchoring my ring finger on the E string whenever I play any of the higher strings. I've tried to stop doing it but I end up with a bad sound when plucking the A because my finger comes to a stop quite hard against the E and makes a loud thump that interferes with the attack of the note.

Is anchoring my ring finger like this a bad thing to do - should I strive to not do it? I think I do it on bass guitar too, I think that's where it's come from and why I'm having trouble not doing it. It's hard not to do it without curling my third and fourth fingers into my palm (which of course makes moving the other two quite difficult).[/quote]

Ring finger? I anchor my thumb on the E but play with the index finger only. I noticed I wasn't getting good tone or volume on the A and E and it was down to my thumb being on the E so I've become more conscious of keeping it on the edge of the fingerboard and reaching over more. Once you do it you find it's actually easier than anchoring on the E string, well at least it feels better anyway.

I played my first short live gig with the db at a local acoustic club last night and found myself doing this and changed my thumb position part way through, felt much better. A friend took some video of it so I can see all the other mistakes I'm making too: left hand not curled enough so playing with the pads of my fingers not the tips, some missed notes (normal for me), bad intonation a few times (although I could hear that at the time I played it), needs more feel and expression, etc. 3 weeks is clearly not long enough but I enjoyed it immensely, had a lot of comments about it afterwards and two more offers to play with other people - they must all be deaf too

Edited February 27, 2010 by Greydad

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='755732' date='Feb 24 2010, 02:00 AM']Still enjoying myself though so it won't be hard to stick at it. I think it will improve my bass guitar playing in a few different respects too. Great instrument and I wish I'd taken it seriously earlier.[/quote]

Quite true, you'll find that if you employ the db fingering technique on your electric, you'll end up a faster and much more economical player.

Are you playing mainly by ear or reading, btw?

[endorka]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='758574' date='Feb 26 2010, 07:59 PM']Having a right-hand issue though: I've found I'm anchoring my ring finger on the E string whenever I play any of the higher strings. I've tried to stop doing it but I end up with a bad sound when plucking the A because my finger comes to a stop quite hard against the E and makes a loud thump that interferes with the attack of the note.[/quote]

Just to check: are you still using bass guitar technique to pluck the strings, i.e. the fingertips? On double bass it is more typical to use the side of the fingers to get more "meat" onto the strings and give a stronger/fatter sound. I'm sure there are plenty examples, but the following is one approach, courtesy of Ray Brown;

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9frgJdwYNC8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9frgJdwYNC8[/url]

Jennifer

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='758613' date='Feb 26 2010, 08:47 PM']Quite true, you'll find that if you employ the db fingering technique on your electric, you'll end up a faster and much more economical player.

Are you playing mainly by ear or reading, btw?[/quote]

Totally by ear at the moment. I can't read (I know the stave and key sigs and basic stuff but I've never been any good at reading timing), but I am intending to learn as I learn this instrument.

[quote name='endorka' post='758706' date='Feb 26 2010, 11:00 PM']Just to check: are you still using bass guitar technique to pluck the strings, i.e. the fingertips? On double bass it is more typical to use the side of the fingers to get more "meat" onto the strings and give a stronger/fatter sound. I'm sure there are plenty examples, but the following is one approach, courtesy of Ray Brown;[/quote]

I've tried that but I don't know if it's my bass or my strings (hybrids) but it sounds well boomy when I play like that. So yeah I'm playing with my fingertips and tugging quite hard I think judging by the blisters I'm getting on my index finger. At least I can switch to the side of my fingers when it starts to hurt.

I also have a bit of trouble (due to the boominess) hearing the intonation well on lower notes when I use the fat of my finger, I think that's why I'm naturally avoiding doing it like that.

[endorka]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='758820' date='Feb 27 2010, 03:31 AM']I've tried that but I don't know if it's my bass or my strings (hybrids) but it sounds well boomy when I play like that. So yeah I'm playing with my fingertips and tugging quite hard I think judging by the blisters I'm getting on my index finger. At least I can switch to the side of my fingers when it starts to hurt. [/quote]

Interesting - does this boominess manifest itself even when the instrument is unamplified?

Jennifer

[Grambo]

[quote name='Greydad' post='758597' date='Feb 26 2010, 08:30 PM']but I enjoyed it immensely, had a lot of comments about it afterwards and two more offers to play with other people - they must all be deaf too [/quote]


Bl****y Hell Greydad - competition! I hope you are North Somerset! It's bad enough already without having some young upstart nicking all my gigs......

I shall have to put my [i]other[/i] bass up for sale as well.....

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='endorka' post='758826' date='Feb 27 2010, 04:21 AM']Interesting - does this boominess manifest itself even when the instrument is unamplified?

Jennifer[/quote]

I don't have a pickup at the moment, so I haven't amplified this bass. It's mostly the A and E strings, they are very bassy and thumpy, and when I pick with the side of my finger it seems to make the tone even deeper. I think the strings are Pirastro Evah Pirazzi.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Greydad' post='758597' date='Feb 26 2010, 08:30 PM']I played my first short live gig with the db at a local acoustic club last night and found myself doing this and changed my thumb position part way through, felt much better. A friend took some video of it so I can see all the other mistakes I'm making too: left hand not curled enough so playing with the pads of my fingers not the tips, some missed notes (normal for me), bad intonation a few times (although I could hear that at the time I played it), needs more feel and expression, etc. 3 weeks is clearly not long enough but I enjoyed it immensely, had a lot of comments about it afterwards and two more offers to play with other people - they must all be deaf too [/quote]

Awesome. You're brave! I was due to use it for a practice this Sunday with my regular band but they've cancelled. Wouldn't dare gig it yet though, kudos to you.

[Greydad]

[quote name='Grambo' post='758890' date='Feb 27 2010, 09:47 AM']Bl****y Hell Greydad - competition! I hope you are North Somerset! It's bad enough already without having some young upstart nicking all my gigs......

I shall have to put my [i]other[/i] bass up for sale as well.....[/quote]

[thread hijack]

Mid-somerset, near Burnham Where's youz?

This double bass thing is a lark isn't it?! Can't believe how much attention it gets from people in the audience, they just seem to love it no matter how inept you are, people seem to have a lot of affection for the instrument.

Had another (surprise) gig last night in Burnham, 3 hours doing old time and bluegrass, never played any of it (or played with the other musicians) before. Now they want me regularly, so that's 4 acoustic projects I'm in in 3 weeks so far

[/thread hijack]

[quote]I've tried that but I don't know if it's my bass or my strings (hybrids) but it sounds well boomy when I play like that. So yeah I'm playing with my fingertips and tugging quite hard I think judging by the blisters I'm getting on my index finger. At least I can switch to the side of my fingers when it starts to hurt.[/quote]

I ripped the end of my index finger tip to bits like that in about a day just after I started playing. The good thing about it is that if you still want to keep playing you have to avoid the mega-blister (which is there to remind you you're not doing it right) so that forces you to lay your index finger alongside the string and that seems to be the way to do it - I slightly hook it from about the first knuckle joint and it seems to sound nice and you can play for a long time like that without wear and tear. Jake can jump in and correct me if that's not quite correct but it feels comfortable to me and the tone is a lot better than scrabbling with your finger tips.

[Grambo]

[quote name='Greydad' post='758956' date='Feb 27 2010, 11:06 AM'][thread hijack]

Mid-somerset, near Burnham Where's youz?



[/thread hijack][/quote]
Oh, that's ok - I'm near Yeovil - so we won't be competing!

[Grambo]

[quote name='Greydad' post='758956' date='Feb 27 2010, 11:06 AM']I ripped the end of my index finger tip to bits like that in about a day just after I started playing. The good thing about it is that if you still want to keep playing you have to avoid the mega-blister (which is there to remind you you're not doing it right) so that forces you to lay your index finger alongside the string and that seems to be the way to do it - I slightly hook it from about the first knuckle joint and it seems to sound nice and you can play for a long time like that without wear and tear. Jake can jump in and correct me if that's not quite correct but it feels comfortable to me and the tone is a lot better than scrabbling with your finger tips.[/quote]

I learned many years ago that playing with the index and second fingers almost parallel to the strings is the only way to prevent the dreaded blisters - it also allows you to put more energy into the string. Much can be achieved by using a rollong action at the wrist - most players use this style for a reason!

[Greydad]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='758950' date='Feb 27 2010, 11:01 AM']Awesome. You're brave! I was due to use it for a practice this Sunday with my regular band but they've cancelled. Wouldn't dare gig it yet though, kudos to you. [/quote]

No, probably just stupid. Honestly, I reckon you just have to go for it - on the job training and all that. Small local gigs with reasonably sympathetic people and build experience and confidence as you go. It's supposed to be fun after all not just hours of Simandl... probably makes me a busker

[Greydad]

[quote name='Grambo' post='759007' date='Feb 27 2010, 12:09 PM']Oh, that's ok - I'm near Yeovil - so we won't be competing! [/quote]

If you're gigging or have a myspace page PM me and let's try and meet up - promise I won't heckle

I've met up with a few double bassists in the area now, all great people.

[gerryk]

I started about 4 yrs ago, thinking I could handle the transition from electric (playing over 30 yrs!), after all, it's exactly the same, only a bit bigger right???

I quickly realised, after experiencing similar fatigue/soreness issues to yourself, that I must be doing something wrong. First I got a great bass book, Rufus Reid's "The Evolving Bassist". This is a powerhouse of great tips for posture, hand position, technique etc. One very crucial thing he says is that the weight of the bass should be balanced against your body - in fact, ideally you should be able to take your hands away without the bass falling - so that your thumb is free to move lightly up and down the neck, without taking the weight of the bass.
I found it particularly hard to come to terms with the 1 2 4 fingering technique coming from electric, but it's the tried and tested way to develop good reliable intonation and mobility on this large instrument.

Another very good free source of info is a guy called Bassius on Youtube. Simple no-nonsense tips from a good player with good tone.

All that said, I still found the services of experienced players invaluable. A single "point me in the right direction" lesson from a great older bassist called Dave Fleming (who played for many years with jazz guitarist Louis Stewart), made a huge difference, because no matter how good the material online or in books is, you absolutely need a teacher to watch you and correct the things you cannot see for yourself. By the way, I recently started taking arco lessons from an orchestral virtuoso, and two pivotal things he gave me were; 1. practice in front of a large mirror, to watch what you're doing almost with the perspective of a teacher; 2. A good bow grip is the basis of good arco sound - he actually marked the points on my fingers where I should be applying grip to the frog of the bow.

Also, "a little and often" is a great guide to practice regime - I found out the hard way that overdoing it can lead to painful blisters on left hand fingers! Conversely, for various reasons from time to time I might miss out on practice for several days, and coming back I would find that my intonation was very bad, my fingers tender etc. So much of playing upright is muscle training. If you only pick it up for 10 minutes every day, you're reinforcing habits that you want to make 2nd nature.

The other comments about left hand position and bass height I totally agree with, and the most frequent point made about getting a good teacher is paramount imho.

Hope that rant is of some benefit, have fun!

[Cairobill]

I've played BG for many years and started db 5 years ago. Applying any sort of Electric bass technique to the stand up is dodgy as you will exhaust the wrong set of muscles and develop tendinitis. Hand fatique after 5 or ten minutes of playing is a sure indicator of this. Building up muscles will not help - it's a technique thing...

I found Rufus Reid's DVD invaluable in developing good left and right hand technique. He clearly explains all this stuff - it is really worth the outlay. The book is great too. Simandl has been a great course in just developing reading and knowledge of the fingerboard.

I also had some lessons from a fantastic player called Steve Watts to correct my posture, left and right hand and talk about good practice strategy but I wouldn't say that you "need" to have a regular teacher, maybe intense sessions off and on to discuss where to go next and correct bad habits.

Getting correct left hand technique from a teacher is an unavoidable first step on the db e.g. on the left hand - using your arm weight to depress the strings through an unbent wrist is the big Eureka moment for DB (squeezing with your left hand fingers is going to lead to muscle fatigue and all the rest) and on the right hand - using arm weight to put the energy into the string through your fingers, not finger muscles alone.

Getting these basic techniques down will make the whole thing seem less like torture and more like the greatest instrument in the world! Also, reducing the action on a double bass to accommodate bad technique will only make your bass sound weedy - while extreme high action is favoured by some (mainly Bebop) players, you can have moderate action and good tone but if the bass is playable with electric bass technique, it is likely to sound floppy and gutless. The double bass takes a lot of energy to get the notes to sound properly, so it needs the right tension and pressure on the bridge to 'speak'...

As an aside, for walking, the best book by far I found was this...

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Walking-Bass-Acoustic-Electric/dp/0793580420"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Walking-Bass-A...c/dp/0793580420[/url]

Apart from that listen to and transcribe a LOT of Ray Brown for the nuts and bolts and then as much Scott La Faro for the far out stuff...I've also started seriously working with the bow on some solo pieces and it's making my pizz playing improve in leaps and bounds...

I love the db...

Nick

Edited February 28, 2010 by Cairobill

[jakenewmanbass]

+1 to all of Cairobill's post above and Steve Watts is a fabulous bass player.

[thisnameistaken]

I am taking all this in I swear, I'm just waiting for my teacher to find a slot for me. He's supposed to be coming over next week at some point.

Left hand/arm is coming along quite well now I think, but trying to keep both left and right hand technique correct at the same time is like asking a drunk man to rub his tummy and pat his head!

I'm sure it will feel natural at some point but 20 years of self-taught bass guitar bad habits are tricky to break.

[Cairobill]

And I echo a comment made above about playing less notes. There's nothing like getting into the double bass to teach you about tone, note length, the value of space and harmony. Double bass is a lifelong thing...enjoy!

...and check this stuff out...

Ray Brown being impossibly cool...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_KjGK4k2ho"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_KjGK4k2ho[/url]

Charles Mingus...v interesting player and composer...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqWLSe0FS0I"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqWLSe0FS0I[/url]

...no real vids of La Faro but this has a selection of great tracks from his Bill Evans recordings. He's a genius and set a high watermark almost 50 years ago before he died in a car crash at the age of 25... Incredible...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln0wVO7qFeU&feature=fvw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln0wVO7qFeU&feature=fvw[/url]

Edited March 1, 2010 by Cairobill

[fatback]

[quote name='gerryk' post='759221' date='Feb 27 2010, 04:21 PM']A single "point me in the right direction" lesson from a great older bassist called Dave Fleming (who played for many years with jazz guitarist Louis Stewart),[/quote]

Is Dave Fleming based in Dublin?

Nice info btw, thanks.