EBMM Stingray 4 string weak G string question

[implo]

[quote name='artisan' post='808582' date='Apr 16 2010, 05:26 PM']i almost sold my 'Ray before getting the Nordy fitted, am just glad i didn't.[/quote]

Aye, same here. Sounds ace now - big, fat sound. Lovely as pie.

[dave_bass5]

I did get a reply from carey last night. Although I had wired it back to front I re did it according to Carey's instruction but it sounded the same.
After playing it for a while I am happy with the tone.
My theory is that the nordy has a tighter low end and this is helping to stop the G from getting overpowered with low end and this helps it cut through. Could be wrong though.
It does sound a bit smoother overal so I think it wad worth doing.

[lapolpora]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='817986' date='Apr 25 2010, 12:15 PM']I did get a reply from carey last night. Although I had wired it back to front I re did it according to Carey's instruction but it sounded the same.
After playing it for a while I am happy with the tone.
My theory is that the nordy has a tighter low end and this is helping to stop the G from getting overpowered with low end and this helps it cut through. Could be wrong though.
It does sound a bit smoother overal so I think it wad worth doing.[/quote]
Hi Dave,

I've just got a Nordstrand as well - how should it be wired to be faithful to the original MM tone? And when wired correctly, is it in series or parallel? (Shame on me for not knowing )

Cheers,

Derrick

Edited April 25, 2010 by lapolpora

[dave_bass5]

Red and black together to the hot connection. On my ray34 this was to the circuit board where the White lead was. The other 3 leads go to ground. On my ray34 this was just to the back of the vol pot.
This will give you a pup wired in parallel and this is the standard wiring for a single pup SR.

I didn't know any of this either until last night.

Hope this helps. I spent ages searching for this info and couldn't find much on line. The wiring diagram can be found on the seymour Duncan website.

[lapolpora]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='817994' date='Apr 25 2010, 12:32 PM']Red and black together to the hot connection. On my ray34 this was to the circuit board where the White lead was. The other 3 leads go to ground. On my ray34 this was just to the back of the vol pot.
This will give you a pup wired in parallel and this is the standard wiring for a single pup SR.

I didn't know any of this either until last night.

Hope this helps. I spent ages searching for this info and couldn't find much on line. The wiring diagram can be found on the seymour Duncan website.[/quote]
Many thanks!

[luckman67]

I am new to Musicman's since only buying my S.U.B Stingray last Saturday. Anyway I'm off work this week so this morning after reading this fascinating thread, plugged my SUB into my Ampeg BA115 combo and thankfully my G string sounded as even as the other strings. I did'nt know that the Stingray had this type of problem I thought that they were problem free.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='luckman67' post='819142' date='Apr 26 2010, 11:58 AM']I am new to Musicman's since only buying my S.U.B Stingray last Saturday. Anyway I'm off work this week so this morning after reading this fascinating thread, plugged my SUB into my Ampeg BA115 combo and thankfully my G string sounded as even as the other strings. I did'nt know that the Stingray had this type of problem I thought that they were problem free.[/quote]

You probably wont notice it until you play with the band. Its not that its quiet, its more that it lacks the fullness of the other strings.
I found this to be the case with my Sub and my Ray34. If you dont add too much low end boost, and dont drop the mids (on the amp in your case) or the treble you may never notice it.
Ive checked my strings output using the input level meter in Wavelab and all seem pretty even but as soon as i play along to a MP3 and add some EQ on the Bass certain notes will get lost. I find its more so with finger playing than pick playing. With a pick it seems to boost the upper freqs anyway and i find this also helps.

I also hadn't heard about this at the start of the year, but after some research i noticed it was a problem that some people had, and many others dont.
When i got my Sub i was quick to test this out at home and all was well. But at the gig that night there were certain lines that just didnt come through. Even the band asked why i had changed a few lines. I didnt of course, it was just missing notes. Ive got live recordings that do indeed show this. Its like the low freqs dominate the upper ones, causing the notes to almost disappear.
I find its between the first fret and about the 7th. After that its fine.

I dont really find it a problem these days, i can live with it.

Edited April 26, 2010 by dave_bass5

[Musicman20]

I had two 3 band EQ Rays which I only sold to get a Classic and SR5 on order.

I dont think I ever noted a weak G string....weirdly.

The main reason I went for Rays is that I think their electronics and tone are up there with some of the best anyway, so I doubt Id ever switch anything on it. I know EB are really picky with their guarantees if you change small bits on the bass.

Maybe Ive been lucky?!

I agree the E sounds massive on Rays....and sometimes it feels the bottom two strings dont 'push' as much as the E and A, but thats the same for every Jazz bass Ive tried. Its part of their tone and original design I guess....Im guessing its a technical issue to do with frequencies.

[Jack]

Are we talking about the Nordy mm4.2 here? As has been mentioned, if they copied the EBMM formula properly why does this fix the issue? Are there any other decent replacements out there? If I could have a flat top (no exposed pole pieces) and solve the G thing I' be chuffed.

[Musicman20]

It's an inherent part of the pre-amp/Stingray 4 apparently. I've never noticed it, or had issue with it. Part of why the slapping sounds like it does when you are doing octaves on the A and G strings.

Strangely, it never gets discussed with the SR5.

[Jimmi Clarke]

Hello!! this is my first post!! this forum is very cool! I've been a Stingray user since i was 19 and i'm now 32 i've been a full time freelance bass player all that time too. I love the the whole vibe of the Stingray they built to be played! they're amazing apart from the stock pickups, they just aren't great. I fitted an East U-Retro on an HS Stingray I used to own and I love the east preamps but it sounded nasty. When I changed the pickup I finally had the bass I wanted! You did the right thing! Enjoy!

[Jack]

[quote name='Jimmi Clarke' timestamp='1363220265' post='2010190']
Hello!! this is my first post!! this forum is very cool! I've been a Stingray user since i was 19 and i'm now 32 i've been a full time freelance bass player all that time too. I love the the whole vibe of the Stingray they built to be played! they're amazing apart from the stock pickups, they just aren't great. I fitted an East U-Retro on an HS Stingray I used to own and I love the east preamps but it sounded nasty. When I changed the pickup I finally had the bass I wanted! You did the right thing! Enjoy!
[/quote]


Welcome to BC Jimmi. What did you change the pickup to in the end?

[Dingus]

Is this weak G string thing supposed to effect all Stingrays or just an unlucky proportion of them ? I have never noticed this problen on any Stingray I have played or owned , and I can vouch for the fact that the G string on the rear pickup on my EBMM Reflex HH certainly doesn't sound weak .

[swanbrook]

I have had 4 stingrays 4 string and everyone had the same problem I still have an 93 ray and I have the pick up adjusted to try and help.

My sr5 does not have this issue, mind you you do have to adjust your technique when playing as the g string has a tendency to slip off the fret board if your not carful. Apparently this is an issue with the sr5 too

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1363286826' post='2011140']
Is this weak G string thing supposed to effect all Stingrays or just an unlucky proportion of them ? I have never noticed this problen on any Stingray I have played or owned , and I can vouch for the fact that the G string on the rear pickup on my EBMM Reflex HH certainly doesn't sound weak .
[/quote]

I did notice it on mine... depending on the amplification I was using and how I had the eq set.

Start with flat eq on both the bass and the amp and adjust from there only when everyone else in the band is playing and you'll be fine.

[drTStingray]

There's a simple answer, if you don't like them, buy something different. Like DIngus, I've had (and do have) several Stingrays and don't have this issue in a live or recorded situation.

The problem with all basses is if you overscoop the mid range, the upper notes sound less powerful (when stood right in front of your rig) than the lower ones when you're playing with a band. The Stingray has a naturally scooped sound (as does a Fender Jazz and various other basses) - if you overdo the bass EQ and cut the mids (on a 2 band Ray this happens automatically if you put the treble and bass control on full), the lower strings will appear to sound louder than the upper ones - however they actually don't out in the room, although you might not be as present in the mix as you would want if you have the mids scooped too much - the way to get the sound back is to avoid excessive EQ adjustment. This phenomena can be achieved on many basses, but particularly a Fender Jazz with both pick ups on full (scooped sound again). I believe it's an EQ setting issue. I have a Markbass LM3 and if I put the VPF on full (scooped sound) I can create the 'weak G string' sound - well certainly in terms of the sound in front of the rig.

Stingrays also respond to having the pick up level adjusted correctly (as per Musicman FAQ info).

I've come across the SR5 thing you mention - it's a technique issue - the neck is a nice width for me, but a trade off is the strings get relatively close to the edge but not a problem at all unless you're very inaccurate - the SR5 has certainly been one of the basses used for a lot of recording, and also in live shows - I don't think Elton John would have put up with his bassist constantly pushing the G string off the edge of the fretboard?? For me, a wider neck would be more of an issue in terms of playability than having the G and B strings relatively close to the edge. I guess some people may prefer a wider neck.

Edited March 14, 2013 by drTStingray

[Dingus]

I have the string -coming -off -the edge -of -the -fingerboard issue with all EBMM five string basses , and it drives me crazy . Plenty of other basses have the same problem too , and it seems to bother some people ( like me ) a lot more than others . Fodera have an ingenious way round this problem of comfortable neck width versus enough space for proper string spacing and string to the edge of the fingerboard alignment in so much as they put theB string closer than the G to the edge of the board and it feels perfect .

Edited March 14, 2013 by Dingus

[stingrayPete1977]

Never had that problem any more or less than any other bass regardless of the number of strings really.

[Jimmi Clarke]

[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1363284285' post='2011080']



Welcome to BC Jimmi. What did you change the pickup to in the end?
[/quote]

[Jimmi Clarke]

Whoops, just getting used to this. I changed it to an EMG 40 DC humbucker originally and had a custom built search plate. I now use the same bass with 2 EMG DC 40's one slightly closer to the neck of where the original pickup was and one closer to the brige. Sounds nice but a bit more like a shadowsky Jazz now. I used it on the 'Il Divo Live in Barcelona' Album if you want to hear what the bass sounds like. I also put the direct EMG MMTW into another SR5 that sounded nice. I like the Duncan pickups they sound great too.

[mcnach]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1363303625' post='2011469']
There's a simple answer, if you don't like them, buy something different. Like DIngus, I've had (and do have) several Stingrays and don't have this issue in a live or recorded situation.

The problem with all basses is if you overscoop the mid range, the upper notes sound less powerful (when stood right in front of your rig) than the lower ones when you're playing with a band. The Stingray has a naturally scooped sound (as does a Fender Jazz and various other basses) - if you overdo the bass EQ and cut the mids (on a 2 band Ray this happens automatically if you put the treble and bass control on full), the lower strings will appear to sound louder than the upper ones - however they actually don't out in the room, although you might not be as present in the mix as you would want if you have the mids scooped too much - the way to get the sound back is to avoid excessive EQ adjustment. This phenomena can be achieved on many basses, but particularly a Fender Jazz with both pick ups on full (scooped sound again). I believe it's an EQ setting issue. I have a Markbass LM3 and if I put the VPF on full (scooped sound) I can create the 'weak G string' sound - well certainly in terms of the sound in front of the rig.

Stingrays also respond to having the pick up level adjusted correctly (as per Musicman FAQ info).

[/quote]

I have a Stingray and a 2003 SUB. Neither of them seemed weak on the G to me. I find what you said about the EQ interesting, as I like midrange and I never boost bass and treble much. I seem to have the bass control at about a quarter to a third of its travel, and the treble maybe a tiny bit more, and that has a lot more bite than boosting both to max, which many people seem to do.

The pickup on my Stingray is quite angled too, much closer on the treblier strings.

Now, another curious thing. My SUB was great. Very punchy D and G strings. Then my G string broke and... it was the string set the bass came with when I bought it. I have no clue what the strings are. This happened at a gig, I quickly put another G string on, from a D'Addario XL170 set... and my G string was gone. Much much quieter. Ok, I thought it was probably not well matched to the others... so I set out to find out what the strings were. I never did find out... I was in between Ernie Ball and DR Fat beams. I tried the Fat Beams... Nice strings, same gauge as I had... but the G string was... weak. Oh no! Now the pickup on this bass was not nearly as angled as the Stingray's, and it sounded balanced.
So I angled it more, so that the treble is closer to the strings, and then lowered the pickup a bit, equally. It seemed much more balanced. I used the bass tonight at a gig, and the G string sounded every bit as good as the others.

The conclusion for me is that I remain sceptical about the idea of a "weak G string"... Yes, it can happen, but it's something that can be contributed to by a number of parameters that we have control over: strings, pickup set up and EQ.
My guess is that the people who complain about a weak G do not use/want a tone similar to the tone I want... in that case, maybe it's not the best bass for them?

Edited March 15, 2013 by mcnach

[swanbrook]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1363303625' post='2011469']
There's a simple answer, if you don't like them, buy something different. Like DIngus, I've had (and do have) several Stingrays and don't have this issue in a live or recorded situation.

The problem with all basses is if you overscoop the mid range, the upper notes sound less powerful (when stood right in front of your rig) than the lower ones when you're playing with a band. The Stingray has a naturally scooped sound (as does a Fender Jazz and various other basses) - if you overdo the bass EQ and cut the mids (on a 2 band Ray this happens automatically if you put the treble and bass control on full), the lower strings will appear to sound louder than the upper ones - however they actually don't out in the room, although you might not be as present in the mix as you would want if you have the mids scooped too much - the way to get the sound back is to avoid excessive EQ adjustment. This phenomena can be achieved on many basses, but particularly a Fender Jazz with both pick ups on full (scooped sound again). I believe it's an EQ setting issue. I have a Markbass LM3 and if I put the VPF on full (scooped sound) I can create the 'weak G string' sound - well certainly in terms of the sound in front of the rig.

Stingrays also respond to having the pick up level adjusted correctly (as per Musicman FAQ info).

I've come across the SR5 thing you mention - it's a technique issue - the neck is a nice width for me, but a trade off is the strings get relatively close to the edge but not a problem at all unless you're very inaccurate - the SR5 has certainly been one of the basses used for a lot of recording, and also in live shows - I don't think Elton John would have put up with his bassist constantly pushing the G string off the edge of the fretboard?? For me, a wider neck would be more of an issue in terms of playability than having the G and B strings relatively close to the edge. I guess some people may prefer a wider neck.
[/quote]

Wow nice one so after over 25 playing bass I clearly don't have a clue how to set my eq and my technique sucks, cheers lad

Both these issues are well documented on the ebmm and tb websites and even some of the die hard fans have said they have to adjust their technique to suit the SR 5.
It's not a big problem for me with either bass and I still have one of each but I don't try to pretend that there is no issue with them or try to blame the players ears or ability. As most people have tried and tested swap the pick up and the problem goes away its a bit fanboi to blame their eq knowledge and playing ability.

However not all stingrays seem to suffer this fate, I had an original sub which was perfect and maybe even better that any stingray I have had.
I still own and love 2 stingrays a 4 and a 5 but I don't bury my head in the sand about it especially when I can plug in any other bass and both issues disappear.

Edited March 15, 2013 by swanbrook

[swanbrook]

Oh ..... My bongo or my 25th hss never had the problem of the G slipping off or an uneven eq.

[mingsta]

My '93 2-eq SR4 has always had a quiet G string, but it doesn't seem so bad nowadays. Just recently fitted a fretless neck so will try again.

My 4HH SR4 and 5HH bongo's are fine.

My Sadowsky RV-HPJ4 had a quiet E but this went away after I fitted some D'Addario Chromes.

My conclusion? There is none, except that one should make a sacrifice at the altar of the bass gods as it is on their whim whether or not one is cursed or blessed.

[Dingus]

[quote name='swanbrook' timestamp='1363323189' post='2011563']
Oh ..... My bongo or my 25th hss never had the problem of the G slipping off or an uneven eq.
[/quote]

Fair enough ; when I complain about it , I am talking mainly about SR5's , but the one and only Bongo 5 I tried had the same problem , albeit to a lesser degree . There will almost certainly be some variation between individual examples . I have had the same problem with various four string basses where the nut has been cut in a particular way where the strings are close to the edge of the fretboard , but it's easier to remedy on a four string because you can have a new nut cut and you dont really notice any change in the string spacing . Some people aren't bothered by the strings being close to the edge of the board , and I know some people even like it that way , but for me it is a right pain in the arse . The lighter gauge strings a player is using , the more of a problem it is likeley to be .