DaleASmith Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 11 hours ago, sandy_r said: Some things are possible but they're not practical To give you some idea of what's involved, here are some views of the PCB & connectors Effects loops are often post-EQ (but would be pre-EQ in a bass --> pedalboard --> amp type setup) To insert 2x post-EQ FX loops (1 for 'clean' channel, 1 for 'grit') in the Bass Butler, the most direct way would be to look near the Amp o/p path: both channels end with a Volume control (and may not need buffering at this point), and they are pre cab-sim The 'grit' Vol pot's three connections are top-right in this crop, and the 'clean' Vol pot's 3 connections are bottom-left (helpfully obscured by a capacitor!). Depending on how the control pot is designed into the circuit, you'll probably need to use the Max-level and wiper solder connection of each pot for the Loop Send & Return connections. In this case, for the 'grit' pot, the max-level would be the right-hand of the 3. For the 'clean' pot, the order is swapped L-to-R IF the pot is designed in with the wiper (middle) as output (a fairly common 'Volume Control' type config) that would be the track to break into for the Return connection (the Send connection just being soldered to the max connection of the pot). If the wiper track leads to a capacitor, then the cap can be removed to make the break (and an equivalent replacement soldered inline with the new Return wire), if not, that track will need to be cut (carefully and completely!) Otherwise, you would need to apply the steps in the previous para, swapping Send/Return references to the max and wiper connections of the pot How can you tell which applies? If you were into Electronics, you'd probably check signal levels on the 2 pots with a scope or other test equipment. No test equipment? ...try that earlier para first - if you can plug an FX into your new Loop and it works, stop work immediately, go down the pub and offer up prayers to St Kirchhoff! If it doesn't work, swap the Send & Return wires at the pot, go down the pub, etc. If it still doesn't work ...then you've learnt why some people design & maintain Tech, whilst others just buy and use it 😉 That was the easy bit Ok - 2 FX Send/Return Loops... you either need 4x mono jack sockets, or 2x stereo/TRS sockets. Orange have sized the case to fit fairly compactly round the PCB, leaving space for connectors on the rear side, below the board (from the User/Operational PoV). Looking at the existing connector space, an extra 4 mono jack sockets looks like a no-go - 2 extra TRS jacks? Your call When you've decided where you can fit the Jacks (and still make the mod not look like a Kluge), how easy it going to be to drill the case (after you've removed all the existing electronics - PCB+controls & connectors, to avoid contamination by swarf)? Do you have the necessary tools, or will you have to buy some in? If it doesn't work out - or sound - as you'd hoped, have you just decimated the resale value of the Bass Butler? TL; DR ? Enjoy using your Bass Butler (while you wait for v2 with the extra 2 FX Loops) Thank you for that comprehensive response ✌️ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaleASmith Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 On 21/01/2024 at 07:29, sandy_r said: Some things are possible but they're not practical To give you some idea of what's involved, here are some views of the PCB & connectors Effects loops are often post-EQ (but would be pre-EQ in a bass --> pedalboard --> amp type setup) To insert 2x post-EQ FX loops (1 for 'clean' channel, 1 for 'grit') in the Bass Butler, the most direct way would be to look near the Amp o/p path: both channels end with a Volume control (and may not need buffering at this point), and they are pre cab-sim The 'grit' Vol pot's three connections are top-right in this crop, and the 'clean' Vol pot's 3 connections are bottom-left (helpfully obscured by a capacitor!). Depending on how the control pot is designed into the circuit, you'll probably need to use the Max-level and wiper solder connection of each pot for the Loop Send & Return connections. In this case, for the 'grit' pot, the max-level would be the right-hand of the 3. For the 'clean' pot, the order is swapped L-to-R IF the pot is designed in with the wiper (middle) as output (a fairly common 'Volume Control' type config) that would be the track to break into for the Return connection (the Send connection just being soldered to the max connection of the pot). If the wiper track leads to a capacitor, then the cap can be removed to make the break (and an equivalent replacement soldered inline with the new Return wire), if not, that track will need to be cut (carefully and completely!) Otherwise, you would need to apply the steps in the previous para, swapping Send/Return references to the max and wiper connections of the pot How can you tell which applies? If you were into Electronics, you'd probably check signal levels on the 2 pots with a scope or other test equipment. No test equipment? ...try that earlier para first - if you can plug an FX into your new Loop and it works, stop work immediately, go down the pub and offer up prayers to St Kirchhoff! If it doesn't work, swap the Send & Return wires at the pot, go down the pub, etc. If it still doesn't work ...then you've learnt why some people design & maintain Tech, whilst others just buy and use it 😉 That was the easy bit Ok - 2 FX Send/Return Loops... you either need 4x mono jack sockets, or 2x stereo/TRS sockets. Orange have sized the case to fit fairly compactly round the PCB, leaving space for connectors on the rear side, below the board (from the User/Operational PoV). Looking at the existing connector space, an extra 4 mono jack sockets looks like a no-go - 2 extra TRS jacks? Your call When you've decided where you can fit the Jacks (and still make the mod not look like a Kluge), how easy it going to be to drill the case (after you've removed all the existing electronics - PCB+controls & connectors, to avoid contamination by swarf)? Do you have the necessary tools, or will you have to buy some in? If it doesn't work out - or sound - as you'd hoped, have you just decimated the resale value of the Bass Butler? TL; DR ? Enjoy using your Bass Butler (while you wait for v2 with the extra 2 FX Loops) Ok, off the back of your great response I’ve had a rethink. Looking at the manual, the signal is split immediately as it enters the box. Would it be easier to have 2 inputs. 1 to the clean channel, 1 to the dirty. This still gives me the option to run 2 parallel signals which are outputted through separate speaker sims, but should be much tidier. 🙏 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy_r Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) 23 minutes ago, DaleASmith said: Ok, off the back of your great response I’ve had a rethink. Looking at the manual, the signal is split immediately as it enters the box. Would it be easier to have 2 inputs. 1 to the clean channel, 1 to the dirty. This still gives me the option to run 2 parallel signals which are outputted through separate speaker sims, but should be much tidier. 🙏 That would be a similar config to a regular 2 channel i/p amp, with pre-EQ FX loops (how would that sit with the BB scheme?) - it would only require 1 extra Jack to try and mount in the case Circuit tracing would need to be done from the existing i/p forwards now, and maybe not such a convenient circuit position to cut in (from a buffering PoV) - but the footswitch might hold the key! Basically you'd be converting a 1-i/p-switched-between-2-EQ-paths into an always-on-1-i/p-thro-2EQ-paths The remaining comments previously about the hardware modding still apply ...can't help feeling that you're trying to convert pedal X into pedal 'Why?' 😉 You'll devalue the Bass Butler and maybe not achieve as good an end-result as buying a bit of kit designed for the job 😒 Edited January 24 by sandy_r 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passinwind Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 This is based on Pedal PCB's knockoff of one of the British Pedal Company's so-called Dumble amp in a box pedals. It's a very basic circuit, but does sound surprisingly good IMO. It's going to a friend who plays mandolin, which I think it will excel for. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) I'm still trying to de-click my send/return loop pedal switch thingy, it's better than it was but still not great. I happened across this circuit board which appears to be just the ticket -- jack input/outputs to 'Input' and 'Output', send and return to 'B_In' and B_Out', and a momentary footswitch attaches to, errm, 'Switch', and that appears to be it. Oh, and a 9v supply. On paper, it appears to be the ticket. I wish it was available as just a PCB, as all bits are easy enough to source and I like soldering . Anyway, I've ordered one to give it a whirl and will report back. Edited February 14 by Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbass4k Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Rich said: I'm still trying to de-click my send/return loop pedal switch thingy, it's better than it was but still not great. I happened across this circuit board which appears to be just the ticket -- jack input/outputs to 'Input' and 'Output', send and return to 'B_In' and B_Out', and a momentary footswitch attaches to, errm, 'Switch', and that appears to be it. Oh, and a 9v supply. On paper, it appears to be the ticket. I wish it was available as just a PCB, as all bits are easy enough to source and I like soldering . Anyway, I've ordered one to give it a whirl and will report back. Musikding sell a few kits - https://www.musikding.de/navi.php?qs=relay+bypass unfortunately they've stopped selling PCBs on their own for most of their kits. Fuzzdog do an optocoupler bypass PCB too which isn't as nice as a relay bypass but should be silent enough and the footswitch mounts on it so it's very space efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekomatic Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 3 hours ago, Rich said: I happened across this circuit board which appears to be just the ticket -- jack input/outputs to 'Input' and 'Output', send and return to 'B_In' and B_Out', and a momentary footswitch attaches to, errm, 'Switch', and that appears to be it. A 16F PIC microcontroller to implement ‘divide by two’ logic. The world’s gone mad I tell you! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 27 minutes ago, nekomatic said: A 16F PIC microcontroller to implement ‘divide by two’ logic. Edited January 31 by Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy_r Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 7 hours ago, Rich said: I'm still trying to de-click my send/return loop pedal switch thingy, it's better than it was but still not great. I happened across this circuit board which appears to be just the ticket Hmmm - not entirely sure this is going to help much in the 'De-clicking' dept. 😞 Advertised as a 'soft switch' solution, but that appears to mean 'uses a light-touch' momentary switch, rather than 'prevents switching noise/pops etc.' Essentially, its just replacing a mahoosive mechanical footswitch with a (mechanical-switch) relay - i can't see any serious dedicated circuitry which conditions the signal o/p at switchover. ....just my €0.02, from an old duffer of no consequence... (an 'expert' will be along soon) +1 on wtf?!? PIC overkill Edited January 31 by sandy_r 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 9 hours ago, Rich said: I'm still trying to de-click my send/return loop pedal switch thingy, it's better than it was but still not great. I happened across this circuit board which appears to be just the ticket -- jack input/outputs to 'Input' and 'Output', send and return to 'B_In' and B_Out', and a momentary footswitch attaches to, errm, 'Switch', and that appears to be it. Oh, and a 9v supply. On paper, it appears to be the ticket. I wish it was available as just a PCB, as all bits are easy enough to source and I like soldering . Anyway, I've ordered one to give it a whirl and will report back. What's the nature of your click problem ? How did you improve it to some extent ? What pedals etc are at the start/end of fx chain ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 7 hours ago, Rich said: the IC that has 16F printed on it.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 9 hours ago, nekomatic said: A 16F PIC microcontroller to implement ‘divide by two’ logic. The world’s gone mad I tell you! Switch debouncing? But a capacitor and a JK flip-flop with J and K left to float to logic 1 would probably accomplish the same thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 12 hours ago, rmorris said: What's the nature of your click problem ? How did you improve it to some extent ? What pedals etc are at the start/end of fx chain ? I tried Fuzzdog's optocoupler bypass, and their buffered bypass, neither of which did much. I reduced it a bit by adding 5M pull down resistors on the send and return (I used 5M because they were the biggest I had in my resistor box), but there is still a pronounced electrical click/pop. There's only one pedal in the chain, and it's a Zoom MS-60B. 14 hours ago, sandy_r said: Hmmm - not entirely sure this is going to help much in the 'De-clicking' dept. 😞 Advertised as a 'soft switch' solution, but that appears to mean 'uses a light-touch' momentary switch, rather than 'prevents switching noise/pops etc.' Essentially, its just replacing a mahoosive mechanical footswitch with a (mechanical-switch) relay - i can't see any serious dedicated circuitry which conditions the signal o/p at switchover. ....just my €0.02, from an old duffer of no consequence... (an 'expert' will be along soon) I guess I'm going to find out. If it does, great, and if it doesn't, well I like to tinker anyway. Never happier than when I'm soldering my fingers to bits of wire. 10 hours ago, LukeFRC said: the IC that has 16F printed on it.... OK, but I still have no clue what "implement ‘divide by two’ logic" means and am too old to learn. 8 hours ago, tauzero said: Switch debouncing? But a capacitor and a JK flip-flop with J and K left to float to logic 1 would probably accomplish the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 49 minutes ago, Rich said: OK, but I still have no clue what "implement ‘divide by two’ logic" means and am too old to learn. Not if you think about it simply. If you have a footswitch, it can either be on when pressed and off when released, or you can have one that toggles between on and off every time you press it (which is sort of normal for a footswitch). The second type is just the first type divided by two, because if you pressed and released the first one twice it would go on / off / on / off, and the second would go on / off. Half as many changes, divided by two. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy_r Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 52 minutes ago, Rich said: I tried Fuzzdog's optocoupler bypass, and their buffered bypass, neither of which did much. I reduced it a bit by adding 5M pull down resistors on the send and return (I used 5M because they were the biggest I had in my resistor box), but there is still a pronounced electrical click/pop. There's only one pedal in the chain, and it's a Zoom MS-60B. I guess I'm going to find out. If it does, great, and if it doesn't, well I like to tinker anyway. Never happier than when I'm soldering my fingers to bits of wire. Gratuitous Thermal Body Modification? ..sounds painfully familiar! If this latest Gizmo doesn't sort it, and you're up for some further tinkering, you'd probably be ok to reduce those 5M to say 1M. I'd start at the Return side first and if better results seen there, try removing the resistor on the Send side ...as always, just an idea... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 3 hours ago, Rich said: I tried Fuzzdog's optocoupler bypass, and their buffered bypass, neither of which did much. I reduced it a bit by adding 5M pull down resistors on the send and return (I used 5M because they were the biggest I had in my resistor box), but there is still a pronounced electrical click/pop. There's only one pedal in the chain, and it's a Zoom MS-60B. Okay. So it seems that it's a 'DC Click' rather than a switch bounce issue. Sounds like you might need to lower those pull down resistors to give a faster time constant. Yeah - I know it affects the impedances. fwiw the 'proper' way to switch without clicking is to ramp the switching so that the dc level doesn't change abruptly. SSM used to make switching ics that did this very nicely from a low voltage supply (5V IIRC) by using internal charge pumps to drive switching FET devices. Sadly no longer manufactured. You can do it with discrete parts but it's a bit of a fuss with having to generate a suitable voltage rail to turn a jfet switch off. Although it depends on the audio level and how fussy you are about offness and crosstalk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekomatic Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 5 hours ago, Woodinblack said: If you have a footswitch, it can either be on when pressed and off when released, or you can have one that toggles between on and off every time you press it (which is sort of normal for a footswitch). The second type is just the first type divided by two, because if you pressed and released the first one twice it would go on / off / on / off, and the second would go on / off. Half as many changes, divided by two. My point (if you'll excuse the continued detour) being that the gadget pictured appears to be using a programmable microcontroller IC, that contains tens of thousands of transistors, can execute hundreds of steps of complex logic and can probably communicate by half a dozen interface protocols at megabit per second speeds, to do just this simple job: wait for the button to be pressed and if the relay is off then switch it on, else if it is on switch it off. If like me you learned electronics in the late '80s this is absolutely ridiculous overkill, like hiring a helicopter to go down the road to the shop (or something) when the 'appropriate' way of doing it would be a 'flip-flop' logic IC consisting of a few dozen transistors that did just that job and nothing else. Of course nowadays the PIC is so cheap and so easy to program that there's really nothing at all wrong with using one like this, and of course someone who learned electronics in the '70s would probably call me lazy for using a logic IC when they could do the same job with individual transistors. It's just hard to shake off one's prejudices sometimes! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 21 minutes ago, nekomatic said: My point (if you'll excuse the continued detour) being that the gadget pictured appears to be using a programmable microcontroller IC I wasn't disagreeing with your point, it is using a microcontroller with more power than the apollo landers to do a flip flop, but I was just explaining to Rich the divide by 2. I don't disagree with you, although in some situations (not this) it is often easier and cheaper to go down that route. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passinwind Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) A couple of new open source resonant LPF pedals, I think this design is just about ready to go public now: These fit in a standard pre-drilled Tayda 125B enclosure and I'll be sharing the artwork in a variety of colors to accommodate the many Tayda box colors. All parts are through-hole format on this one as well. Edited February 1 by Passinwind 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Whilst I wait for my programmable helicopter to arrive in the post another vague question has floated into what I laughably refer to as my mind... have any of you folks ever transplanted the guts of an Ashdown stomp box into a smaller more board-friendly enclosure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Just now, Rich said: Whilst I wait for my programmable helicopter to arrive in the post another vague question has floated into what I laughably refer to as my mind... have any of you folks ever transplanted the guts of an Ashdown stomp box into a smaller more board-friendly enclosure? @disssa traced and rebuilt whichever drive it is that is considered really good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 21 hours ago, nekomatic said: My point (if you'll excuse the continued detour) being that the gadget pictured appears to be using a programmable microcontroller IC, that contains tens of thousands of transistors, can execute hundreds of steps of complex logic and can probably communicate by half a dozen interface protocols at megabit per second speeds, to do just this simple job: wait for the button to be pressed and if the relay is off then switch it on, else if it is on switch it off. If like me you learned electronics in the late '80s this is absolutely ridiculous overkill, like hiring a helicopter to go down the road to the shop (or something) when the 'appropriate' way of doing it would be a 'flip-flop' logic IC consisting of a few dozen transistors that did just that job and nothing else. Of course nowadays the PIC is so cheap and so easy to program that there's really nothing at all wrong with using one like this, and of course someone who learned electronics in the '70s would probably call me lazy for using a logic IC when they could do the same job with individual transistors. It's just hard to shake off one's prejudices sometimes! It would probably have some debounce logic in it as well as emulating a flip-flop though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 8 hours ago, Rich said: Whilst I wait for my programmable helicopter to arrive in the post another vague question has floated into what I laughably refer to as my mind... have any of you folks ever transplanted the guts of an Ashdown stomp box into a smaller more board-friendly enclosure? The PCB of the J-Lo is pretty sizeable so doesn't lend itself to being rehoused Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 5 minutes ago, Bigwan said: The PCB of the J-Lo is pretty sizeable so doesn't lend itself to being rehoused Yes, it's a bit of a monster innit! Ah well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy_r Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 12 hours ago, Rich said: have any of you folks ever transplanted the guts of an Ashdown stomp box into a smaller more board-friendly enclosure? ..No - but here's yer starter for 10, @Rich the existing board is approx same height as the Stompbox example - and very approx 2x width (allowing for usual side connecting space), so... Rotate the JLo PCB 180 degs (Input Ctrl now on right, Out Ctrl on left) Remove 2x Jack and rotate each above PCB to point out sideways (swapping sides, if preferred, to keep I/p on RHS?) Locate a replacement Power In DC socket above PCB back edge Remove Gimmick VU meter Relocate Stomp switch above gap in lower mid Get new case fabricated from thick Alu, drop-level towards rear now for controls ...I seeeeee, Baldrick - but is it more cunning than ... etc, etc Edited February 3 by sandy_r Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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