Improvisation

[Bass-ic]

Hi
Ive started to work on improvisation with my tutor. Great teacher, very patient. Also, very kindly, he records tracks for me to work with which I find really useful. The idea being that I go away and come back with my own bass lines.
However, it does seem to take me ages to get a good bass line going and even when I do i seem to 'run out of ideas' quite quickly. I am trying not to run before I can walk but I do find this frustrating. Is this normal?


Would appreciate some thoughts.
Cheers
Matt

[josh3184]

what I find best (as I can't improv for toffee) is to listen to a piece of music without my bass and make something up in my head. Then spend next half hour learning the first 10 seconds of it

[Basska]

scales! scales! scales! mon frere! Learn every scale you can get your hands on and then use em Improvisation is all about knowing where to go next without thinking about it that much and when you know all of your different scales going all the way up the neck you can do exactly that. Your solo improv will get better and better rather quickly which you and your teacher will notice


Chris

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

It might be an idea to look into Triads (not the ruthless kind) ,scales etc.
and if you can figure out what key the song is in,it should be easier.
Scales of course ,as mentioned above always help

[goigne]

the language in which improv is described can often sound new-agey and ephemeral - not at all like the prescribed way in which i hear music theory itself explained.
i feel i can offer a little advice and it might seem a bit counter-intuitive, but how about actually trying to switch "off" your thought process? so to add to what chris says scales.. scales.. scales... then forget them..
- I've found that the cerebral, including those nagging doubts in my head, are my worst enemy when it comes to improvising..for me its the holy grail - to be able to play whats needed and to play just one note that stokes me out..to pretend you're in the band that your improvising for might also work
I don't think any musician can expect to improvise without something to improvise to - so getting together with either a CD or better still, a group is important..hope this helps...Ben

PS - also setting up a synergy between your voice and your bass can be useful for phrasing...its not always the complicated stuff that works as I'm sure you know, but using your voice at the same time as playing can work well...it might be that there comes a point where your bass becomes your "voice"..so the time between intent and execution becomes that much shorter.

Edited February 25, 2010 by goigne

[DanOwens]

I find that constructing frameworks to improvise within and giving myself small goals helps a lot.

What I mean is, challenge your self to come up with 5 contrasting lines. Maybe one with quavers, one with dotted notes, one with a large range and another with a smaller range etc.

Cognitively engaging with this is a must. You need to challenge yourself and allow the discomfort and awkwardness that you will occasionally experience. Every second you spend challenging yourself is worth days and days of playing the same band basslines, and especially in improvisation.

Others have mentioned scales and triads. Personally I would combine the two and practice scalic intervals up and down the neck (Thanks Mike Walker!!). Playing up in thirds or sixths is difficult, but just ask your teacher how and you'll have no problem.

Good luck!

[xilddx]

Improvise with your voice not your bass, sing lines to yourself and you don't have the restrictions of your technique and knowledge. It will be more "you" aswell. Then learn to connect your bass to your head. You can only really do this by lots of playing and developing the ability to know what the next note or phrase sounds like before you play it. As Steve Vai once said, eventually your fingers become eyes.

[Happy Jack]

A lot depends on what stage you are at in your playing. Is the 'L' plate in your avatar literal or jokey?

I'm still enough of a beginner that I'm learning stuff that many others here on Basschat have taken for granted for years.

I find that the best improv (for me) comes from confidence, from licks & lines that I have played lots of times and no longer need to think about. I'm NOT talking about solo-ing here - I don't solo, end of - but about varying the bass part that I play under the songs that my band does, or that I encounter at jam nights.

If you isolate the licks, phrases and turnarounds that you use most often, feel most comfortable with, and then try stringing some of them together you might surprise yourself.

[josh3184]

This thread has already inspired me to learn more theory. Thanks basschat

[Earbrass]

Another good idea is to choose some instrumental lines (they don't have to be basslines!) from music you like and try to transcribe them. This might sound like the very opposite of improvisation, but it will give you a great insight into how other musicians structure their lines / solos, which may give you ideas you can use in your own playing that you might not otherwise have thought of. Note that a lot of great improvisers/soloists (jazz and other) actually have a lot of stuff worked out in advance - they have a sort of internal "library of licks" from which they can select what suits the moment. Taking ideas from other instruments can be fruitful - eg I've used bits of jazz trumpet solos I've transcribed in basslines. The key thing is break away from your own playing habits - copying other people / other genres / other instruments can be a good way of doing this.

[TenLetters]

What I found really helped me, and I think has been touched on above, was learning the triads that come from each note in a scale. That way you will know which chords in the sacle are major or minor and what basic notes you can use over them and how you can get to and from each chord.

After you have a good grasp of this add in the 7th for each chord and you can really start making some interesting stuff happen. Then just add other scale factors as you progress. Learining the chords in a scale on guitar really helped me with this!

I dont really see the scales as scales anymore but more as groups of chords that share the same notes. Not sure if that makes any sense at all but I cant think of another way to explain it!

[goigne]

+1 for what Dan says about frameworks - the internal finger memory is yours and not to be sniffed at...that doesn't mean don't sniff your fingers
don't be scared if you sound the same...if that makes sense..that same is a very personal thing..if it sounds good you needn't put something else in for the sake of it...if you listen to the African stuff - the stuff by people like Fela Kuti, you can hear a repetitive line that shifts only slightly...i get the feeling and i could be wrong ,but alot of headway can be made going "deep" into a simple idea...its a good idea to limit the size of your "room" by this i mean no effects, no complcation...even play unplugged...this is where i relate the frameworks idea - you are structuring your improv house, putting walls in to narrow things down..

[xilddx]

Interesting how rhythm seems to take a back seat to the notes here. Some of the most interesting improv I play around with is one or two notes, varying accents and timing. I do far more of this live than I do messing with notes. But it depends on the music genre.

[JMT3781]

I do a module at university called improv... Really inspiring

I use modes, not the obscure ones, just dorian and lydian, the pretty sounding ones.

My favourite tool for improv is too create a backing track using loops on garageband, and just play and play and play!

J

[purpleblob]

I only ever improvise (or at least that's the name I give it, others say I just make mistakes all the time ).

As others have said, scales, modes, chord theory etc. all help. They help your ears and your technique, but as I often pipe in on such threads listen to what you're plaing as well, take it slow and think about both the notes (where you are and when you want to get to) but don't forget the groove or rhytm of the music either.

It's relatively easy to knock together a sequence on notes at some super fast speed, what's difficult is actually playing something good (I hope that doesn't sound too cras).

[essexbasscat]

I just know I'm presenting myself at a target for all kinds of polite (?) abuse here, but I found a lot of exploration on the topic of improvisation in Victor Wooten's book 'The Music Lesson, A Spiritual Search for Growth Through Music.' ISBN 978-0-425-22093-1

Gives a few different slants on the topic

T

[xilddx]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='756909' date='Feb 25 2010, 11:47 AM']I just know I'm presenting myself at a target for all kinds of polite (?) abuse here, but I found a lot of exploration on the topic of improvisation in Victor Wooten's book 'The Music Lesson, A Spiritual Search for Growth Through Music.' ISBN 978-0-425-22093-1

Gives a few different slants on the topic

T[/quote]
That book is really, really insightful and deeply thought provoking. It's naturally pretty cheesey in places, it's American. Do not underestimate the book if you haven't read it, just because it's Wooten. Everything in it applies to us all.

[Bass-ic]

Thank you very much everyone. There's tons in here. I must admit thta I have rather neglected scales and the like, but I like the arpeggio thoughts.
I also liked the thought of the singing bass lines, it is in fact something that I do, but find difficult to 'transpose' and 'articulate'to my bass.
I am alos going to have to reread someof the posts again.

In answer to the 'L' plate. it was something that felt I needed to do when I joined up to this site. I am getting better, but still not confident enough of my own abilities to play with other people so the 'L' stands!

one day!

cheers
Matt

[urb]

[quote name='silddx' post='757027' date='Feb 25 2010, 01:16 PM']That book is really, really insightful and deeply thought provoking. It's naturally pretty cheesey in places, it's American. Do not underestimate the book if you haven't read it, just because it's Wooten. Everything in it applies to us all.[/quote]

+1

A great read - yes it's cheesy too - but I also agree with the singing thing - it's a great way to stop thinking about the instrument amd more about the music.

I've found another approach that can work well is really listening to how each note of a scale sounds over a chord - so for example 9ths are a particular fave of mine (EG playing a high D over a C major or minor chord) - they have a sort create a lovely unresolved sound without clashing - while a flattened 9th (a half step lower) is heading into diminished/altered territory - but that's just one note - try this with all the intervals of a scale or mode over the corresponding chord... loads of ideas can be derived from this. Also a fifth over one chord type will sound different over another chord type. What I like to do as well - and this getting a bit more advanced - is take a dominant chord like C7 (basically a major scale with a minor 7th) and then super-impose substitute scales like the half-diminished, diminished, melodic minor and whole tone scales over those kind of chords. Last thing you can try is learning some jazz standards - there are loads of simple ones like Footprints, All Blues, So What - these are all great vehicles for getting you improvising around simple chord progressions - over which you can try all the ideas i mentioned above.

M

[fatback]

[quote name='Basska' post='756770' date='Feb 25 2010, 09:24 AM']scales! scales! scales! mon frere! Learn every scale you can get your hands on and then use em Improvisation is all about knowing where to go next without thinking about it that much and when you know all of your different scales going all the way up the neck you can do exactly that. Your solo improv will get better and better rather quickly which you and your teacher will notice


Chris[/quote]

+1 and exercises using intervals and sequences.

[yorick]

I sometimes hum a counter-melody,and have a drum beat in my head and work something from that.

[Doddy]

Learning scales is majorly important..... but learning arpeggios is more
useful,and just as important.
Most of the time,as a bass player,you should,and will,be basically outlining the
chords,so you need a solid grounding in how to spell them out,which is exactly
what learning arpeggios will do. Scales should come later to fill in the gaps
and expand on the harmony,but arpeggios are the basis of the majority of
lines.
Also,don't just learn the fingering patterns.Learn what the notes are. While it
will be easy to just play patterns,eventually the gaps in your understanding will
begin to cause you problems and limit your ideas once again.

[DanOwens]

I made my biggest improvements in improvisation when I purchased a DL4 looper. Improvising a backing track to improvise a melody over satisfies so many different areas, its great.

Also, I really like the remarks about improvising with arpeggios and improvising rhythms - to me these are all equally important but a good, straightforward place to start is with scales, triads and diatonic intervals.

It shouldn't be daunting. Just start with simple exercises and build in small steps.

Dan

[northstreet]

[quote name='goigne' post='756799' date='Feb 25 2010, 09:43 AM']i feel i can offer a little advice and it might seem a bit counter-intuitive, but how about actually trying to switch "off" your thought process? so to add to what chris says scales.. scales.. scales... then forget them..
- I've found that the cerebral, including those nagging doubts in my head, are my worst enemy when it comes to improvising..[/quote]

I'm with this comment. Every now and again I take a solo in a blues number. If I think about what I'm playing, it sounds stilted and wooden - the best ones are where it's like it's happening without me being involved, if that makes sense. It's a bit scary really, just standing there watching myself play. That's when all the practice pays off.