Frustrating practice last night

[neepheid]

What a time I had last night at band practice trying to make myself heard. I just couldn't cut through worth a damn. I was using my G&L Tribute L-2000 into an Ashdown 2x10 combo of some sort (can't remember which one) and for over half the session I wrestled with amp settings, bass settings, earplugs in, earplugs out. I finally got something audible by seriously boosting the mids on the amp to the point where it sounded crap, but at least it was better than playing by feel.

Just thought I'd have a grumble. Although I don't like the acoustics in the room we were in anyway (and don't get me started on that Ashdown, it's probably seen better days too) I don't think I've quite got the hang of this G&L yet. I can get it to sound great when I'm by myself, but throw a drummer and a guitarist into the mix and I disappear.

I've got a gig on Saturday, and the whole experience has made me think that I'll take my G-3 - it's just simpler, set the volume, cut as much treble as you want then occasionally flick the 3 way to the bridge during the set for the songs where the bass needs a little more bite.

I will master that G&L though, damn it!

[josh3184]

It'll just be that you're using a 2x10, I had the same problem until I changed to a 4x10 then everything cut through pretty well

[Adrenochrome]

Doesn't sound that unusual though. My onstage sound is very middy to cut through without being stupidly loud, then my FOH sound has a lot more bottom end to it.

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

if you were in this neck of the woods,I'd recommend my Eden Combo for sale. Seriously loud!
Sometimes, I find it good to change practice rooms now and again. It can make practicing more fun.
Also, it irons out a ny flaws the band may have.

[NJE]

Been there!

I used to run a 4x8 Ashdown and struggled like mad to be heard through two guitars and drums. Same as you, plugs in plugs out and in the end just end up boosting the mids so I could hear something. Using a 2x12 now and its better but I struggle in some rooms still which is why I am thinking about getting an Autralex Gramma pad to see if it helps with those dodgy rooms and venues.

I dont think its your bass those G&L basses are really punchy and flexible in my limited experience. Maybe just a bad amp and a bad room, it happens sometimes.

[XB26354]

The fact is that bass frequencies need large surface areas to start reacting and providing a real sense of space.
I've been in the same situation with a Blues band I was in a long time ago. They had a couple of small valve amps and I had a 300W Trace 4x10 combo. In the practice room I had the volume on 8 and even with low mids boosted couldn't hear for crap. Soon as we went to a gig I had to turn down because in the larger room the bass became much louder.

Then there is directionality in a lot of bass cab designs. A standard 210 or 410 cab sounds best from 15ft-20ft. You can stand right next to your amp in a practice room and hear nothing whilst the guitarist on the other side of the room can hear nothing but bass (something which designs like Schroeder seek to change).

Perhaps try lifting the amp up to chest height to get the sound closer to your ears, or angle it up like a monitor.
In closing, the only 210 combo I felt OK to gig with was an Epifani UL210C but it was a much larger cab than the traditional side by side, and was rated at 500W anyway. Most 210's simply do not move enough air to get true chest-level punch. If you have the boot space get a 1x15" - it'll lift the 210 up and give you more spread.

[Mr.T]

I put my Ashdown neo 2x10 on an Aguilar 1x12........Plenty of everything!
... but watch those mids.

As has been said many times, what sounds good 'solo' often gets completely lost in a band mix.

[davidmpires]

I find that mids boosting helps sometimes

[dub]

Set up a bit further away from the drummer, put your amp at shoulder height and stand close to it. In a noisy room sometimes earplugs can help.

[LeftyJ]

Had the same trouble with my Ashdown ABM300 C210T EVO II in the beginning, until I turned the bass knob to 9 o'clock. Works like a charm, I got rid of the rumbling subs messing up my definition and I gained a lot of cut through the mix. I also boosted the mids a little, but didn't necessarily have to.

[51m0n]

Bass is not directional, mids and above are.

Hence pointing a cab at your ears increases the ratio of mids to bass that you hear, and makes the cab seem to cut through- for you.

In a small room the volume level will be much much greater, as that energy is all bouncing around in there, and you are all really close to each other (often you are facing each others amps rather than having your right behind you. The amount of direct interference sound (ie guitar spill) coming at you is massively increased. All this makes reheasal rooms very very difficult to work in more often than not!

Bass signal - like all other sound drops in volume the further from the transducer you go. There is no 'throw' thats a complete load of codswallop unsupportable by the physics. See this [url="http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-distancelaw.htm"]page[/url].Something else must explain that phenomenon then....

The ratio of 'room' (ie the amount of bass coming back off the walls) signal to direct (straight from the transducer to your ear) increases the
further you get from the enclosure. The overall volume still drops though, except when....

In certain rooms (typically of a certain size with parallel walls) you will experience phase issues at bass frequencies (from bass reflected from the walls interacting with more direct radiation into the room), these additive and subtractive nodes will massively affect how well you can or can not hear the bass. This is even obvious to me in my front room with my stereo, move a couple of foot closer or further from the speakers in various places down the room and the bass comes and goes by about 3dB. There is literally nothing you can do if this is the case, unless you can put in bass traps and generally play with the acoustics of the room. Hence many venues sound like garbage.

So how do you get yourself heard at a reheasal then?

1) Get your cab up higher
2) Do not let the guitarist point that amp at your face, make him point it at his face instead!
3) Turn everyone down as much as possible
4) Rehearse in a larger room to help with the general noise (not always a goer this one)
5) Get a drummer who can restrain himself
6) Wear ear plugs - decent ones that attenuate reasonably evenly across the full frequency spectrum.

A louder cab is not often the answer in a small room, it will just compound the issue.

Edited February 25, 2010 by 51m0n

[TimR]

If you have your amp flat against a wall in a small room the bass frequencies from your speaker will reflect back off the opposite wall and the wall behind and cancel the ones coming directly from your speaker. Put your amp in the corner and try different angles. If you are still struggling then the guitarists need to cut their bass.

[bubinga5]

I often have issues with my amp sound, and different rooms...What sounds great in one room sounds crap in another...im also concerned as to wether everyone else in the room can hear what im hearing?

Is it possible that im hearing a great bass sound but everyone else its too boomy etc.....?

Is there any website for advise on these sort of issues....?


Where does everyone stand in relation to there amp????

Edited February 25, 2010 by bubinga5

[Mr.T]

[quote name='51m0n' post='757117' date='Feb 25 2010, 02:31 PM']5) Get a drummer who can restrain himself[/quote]

If you find two..... can I have one please?

[51m0n]

[quote name='TimR' post='757439' date='Feb 25 2010, 07:05 PM']If you have your amp flat against a wall in a small room the bass frequencies from your speaker will reflect back off the opposite wall and the wall behind and cancel the ones coming directly from your speaker. Put your amp in the corner and try different angles. If you are still struggling then the guitarists need to cut their bass.[/quote]

If you put your amp ANYWHERE in the room the bass frequencies (and all the rest) will reflect back and forth off all walls. Bass frequencies are omidirectional, ie they propogate evenly from the source in all directions. They are tricky blighters like that! Mids and above are directional.

If you put your amp flat against a wall you will experience a +3db boost due to boundary effect

If you put your amp flat against a wall and on the floor you will experience a +6db boost due to boundary effect

If you put your amp in a corner you will experience a +6db boost due to boundary effect

All from the wall directly behind the amp. Nothing to do with the far wall at all.


If the other walls in the room reflect sound back into the room (which they will) and the room is of a certain size you will get an interference pattern causing areas of higher and lower volume within that space.

Guitarists almost always need to cut a bit of bass, since thir bass is you low mid.

You need to push a bit of upper mid and also cut some low mid (really) to gel in with the guitar as often as not.

You often need to learn to hear yourself in this context as well.

A bass sound that is frequency mixed with a guitar sound will more than likely sound plop on its own.

A guitar sound that is frequency mixed with a bass sound will more than likely sound plop on its own.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='757487' date='Feb 25 2010, 07:46 PM']If you find two..... can I have one please? [/quote]

If I can find two, I'm keeping them for meself (love a bit of two drummer action me )

Edited February 25, 2010 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='757460' date='Feb 25 2010, 07:19 PM']I often have issues with my amp sound, and different rooms...What sounds great in one room sounds crap in another...im also concerned as to wether everyone else in the room can hear what im hearing?

Is it possible that im hearing a great bass sound but everyone else its too boomy etc.....?

Is there any website for advise on these sort of issues....?


Where does everyone stand in relation to there amp????[/quote]

No, they cant, read my first post, they hear more of the sound reflected back from the room than you do, and less of the sound directly from the cab than you do

Absolutely, what works great for you could be boomy or thin to them, it could be a very bass heavy or bass light mix to them, all dependant on the room, and where in it they stand in relation to you and the wall, where you put your cab in relation to the walls etc etc etc So many variables its unreal chaps!

Right in front of it on a tricky stage, a step to the right (put your hands on your hips) on a good stage (lets more mids and tops out there like that - result better sound for the punters).

Gents, this is why we have PAs

Crikey, its tough on here without Alex C and Bill F chiming in with this stuff, I figure they are too busy or bored of repeating themselves......

Edited February 25, 2010 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

Next bass bash I go to, I'll try and remember to bring my lappie or some test tones (around 60, 80, 100, 120, 200, 600, 1200, 3K) to run through my rig in a venue sized room.

Then everyone can have a wander around and hear the room nodes making the bass loud an quiet in different places in the room. Different frequencies have different troughs etc. Its mental!

[northstreet]

Just thought I'd throw something else into the mix. At rehearsal on Tuesday night we were in a different room to the one we usually use. The drum kit in was awful, an odd mix of thin and boomy. Anyway, because of the horrible noises coming from this kit, I couldn't hear myself at all, when normally I have no problems. Everything was just getting lost in the dull thuds coming from the kick and snare. I was using my gig kit (Hartke LH500 and VX115) and I had to push it hard to get heard. So my point is it's not just your sound that might be causing the problem, but also the sound the others are making. Getting the guitard to cut their bass, or getting the drummer to tune the kit properly, might just help.

[TimR]

[quote name='51m0n' post='757500' date='Feb 25 2010, 07:54 PM']...
If you put your amp ANYWHERE in the room the bass frequencies (and all the rest) will reflect back and forth off all walls. Bass frequencies are omidirectional, ie they propogate evenly from the source in all directions. They are tricky blighters like that! Mids and above are directional.
...[/quote]

That's not quite true. As you move the cab (source) around, the nodes of the standing waves will move too. If you put it against the wall you will cut down on the chances that the waves coming from the wall behind are out of phase with the long (low frequency waves) coming from the speaker. Moving the cab around has a big effect. Putting it in the corner should reduce the number of nodes, but this is depedent of frequency and room size.

The highs and mids are directional but they will also spread out (in a cone shape) depending on the cab and speaker design. Usual figures are around 30 degrees. Angling the cab out from the corner will also mean that those frequencies go directly into the room and don't get bounced of the walls (you may or may not want this, you have to experiment). Standing about 10ft in front of your cab (1x15,2x10,4x10) will mean that the waves have spread out high enough to reach your ears.

[bubinga5]

This all sounds like there are too many variables for us less experienced..(me)...would be nice to have a general guide on do's or donts, for those of us who arent in the know...


A sticky (for dummies) on this would help many im sure.. come on 51m0n!!!

[pete.young]

[quote name='neepheid' post='756754' date='Feb 25 2010, 09:11 AM']I will master that G&L though, damn it![/quote]

Whatever it is , it ain't the G&L.

davec came to see my band once when I was playing my G&L, and he said " I don't know what you did but the bass really cut through", and what I did was bridge pickup, 'active with added treble boost' and hiked the mids a bit.

[TimR]

You'll do fine if you remember.

Bass is not just low frequency, most of what you hear and what goes up to make the character of your tone is middle and high frequency.

The higher the frequency the more directional it is and the narrower the 'beam' of sound from your speaker is.

To hear the proper tone you need to be in this 'beam'. Either by standing away from your cab, or by pointing your cab up towards your ears if this is not possible.

Low frequencies (bass) are less directional and have less energy and are easily absorbed.
High frequencies (treble) are more directional and bounce off hard surfaces, but are absorbed by soft surfaces, sofas, curtains, people.

Sound can form constructive or destructive waves, ie when the waves bounce off the wall; the waves going towards and the waves bouncing off can either add together or subtract from each other. How they do this is complex and its not necessary to understand exactly how, just that it does happen. Where they add together it is louder and where they subtract it is quieter. This is dependent on frequency and distance so in some places the bass will be loud while the treble is quiet and vice versa. Some points in the room will become sweet spots where it sounds perfect. Some notes you play will sound dead, others will ring on forever. Changing the direction and position of cabs affects this. Move the cab around, but always try to get its back as close to a wall as possible.

Sound waves will also reflect off the floor and the ceiling as well as any walls.

As was said above to increase the bass more put the cab in the corner. If this makes it too boomy move it away from the corner, but keep it against the wall. Angle it if necessary.

Other instruments can mask the tone of the bass and the bass can mask the tone of other instruments. You need to work with the guitars to decide what overall tone you want from the band rather than the guitarists wanting a guitar tone and you wanting a bass tone. That's the most difficult part to work out.

Edited February 25, 2010 by TimR

[TimR]

I have played in pubs where a six inch oak beam on the ceiling has literally stopped ALL the sound from coming into the rest of the pub. On the side the band was playing it was deafening and there were horrendous feedback problems, on the other side of the beam the band could have been playing in the pub down the road.

Its complex and there are no rules of thumb, you just have to experiment and learn. What works in one situation doesn't work in all.

[51m0n]

[quote name='TimR' post='757712' date='Feb 25 2010, 11:18 PM']You'll do fine if you remember.

Bass is not just low frequency, most of what you hear and what goes up to make the character of your tone is middle and high frequency.

The higher the frequency the more directional it is and the narrower the 'beam' of sound from your speaker is.

To hear the proper tone you need to be in this 'beam'. Either by standing away from your cab, or by pointing your cab up towards your ears if this is not possible.

[b]Low frequencies (bass) are less directional and have less energy and are easily absorbed.
High frequencies (treble) are more directional and bounce off hard surfaces, but are absorbed by soft surfaces, sofas, curtains, people.[/b]

Sound can form constructive or destructive waves, ie when the waves bounce off the wall; the waves going towards and the waves bouncing off can either add together or subtract from each other. How they do this is complex and its not necessary to understand exactly how, just that it does happen. Where they add together it is louder and where they subtract it is quieter. This is dependent on frequency and distance so in some places the bass will be loud while the treble is quiet and vice versa. Some points in the room will become sweet spots where it sounds perfect. Some notes you play will sound dead, others will ring on forever. Changing the direction and position of cabs affects this. Move the cab around, but always try to get its back as close to a wall as possible.

Sound waves will also reflect off the floor and the ceiling as well as any walls.

As was said above to increase the bass more put the cab in the corner. If this makes it too boomy move it away from the corner, but keep it against the wall. Angle it if necessary.

Other instruments can mask the tone of the bass and the bass can mask the tone of other instruments. You need to work with the guitars to decide what overall tone you want from the band rather than the guitarists wanting a guitar tone and you wanting a bass tone. That's the most difficult part to work out.[/quote]

Errr I'm pretty sure that Low frequency in a band situation has [b]way[/b] more energy than high frequency, which is partly why it passes through concrete walls, and can be heard miles away. They are very very difficult to absorb, which is why bass traps are generally massive, wall length affairs, 2 or more feet thick, whilst mid and high frequency absorbtion can be effectively done with a single 2 inch thick layer of acoustic foam. One thing to note , the human ear is 'designed' to hear mids (or the sound of predators circling ), NOT bass (which is an area in which it is significantly less efficient).

If you want more conclusive proof put a couple of sheets of paper over your hifi tweeter, did hear a difference? Now put it over the mid driver and then the bass port, other than it flapping about in the breeze, you'll hear no difference now... That's because of the far greater amount of energy in low frequencies (why blue whales can hear each other half way around the world as well!). They pass straight through the material and are not checked, they make the material vibrate instead.

So soft furnishings soak up top end nicely, and bodies are brilliant at this, leaving way less mid and high frequency energy in the room. Bass charges straight through bodies though, easy peasy - never felt the hihat go right through your chest have you? Large areas of glass or mirrors, hard stone or painted plaster walls, wooden floors are very very very bright sounding, they reflect everything back into the room, but the ratio of reflected energy is highly biased toward mid and top, since bass just tends to pass into the structure, energising it (so that it is heard on the other side of the wall for instance).

Next venue you walk into clap your hands a few times right in the middle of the room, listen to the reverb tail, is it bright, dark, long, short, fluttering (good indicator that you are in acoustic hell) or smooth. Can you hear echoes? Ideally it is short (well under a second), not very bright and very smooth, with absolutely no discernible echoes at all. If you find a venue like this I'd like to know where it is so I can hear bands sounding great!

As I said before bass is very omnidorectional, as TimR states, the node positions are dependant on speaker positioning, and less than 2.5 feet from the back wall or more than 10ft from it are the ideal (cant remember the site I got that info from but it had in depth analysis of nodes based upon speaker placement and tone frequency). However the bass is still bouncing off all the walls together, those behind as well as in front, its just that in the correct range the reflection remains nominally in phase with the source and so you project plenty of volume into the venue.

The gigs I do I try and get all the amps to point at the players plugging into those amps. I try to get all the amps that are not going through the PA up high against a back wall. Ideally I get the guitars side of stage on the floor pointing across the stage and right up at the guitarists head, mic'ed through the PA and with foldback just for the guitarist, they are always amazed at how good this sounds (even with a tiny little 10 or 15w tube amp) and no one else has to endure the directionality of guitar cabs.

Practice eq-ing your [b]band[/b] for different room conditions (some heavy drapes or hardboard sheets in a big rehearsal space can easily change the acoustic nature of a room.

Practice eq-ing the guitar and bass sounds together (hard to get guitarists around to this to be honest). Go read up on frequency mixing, and get into recording multitrack stuff, it is the very best way to learn.

Always have a drummer with a good, well tuned kit, with fresh (as possible) heads on. Oh and great cymbals, rubbish cymabls will just mask everything and hurt your head, and have to be bashed to bits, they are a complete false economy!