Is learning DB on a five string a bad idea?

[fatback]

Planning on starting DB in a couple of months (can;t wait!).

My q is: i'd definitely have use for a low B, but would learning DB on a fiver be a bad idea? I'll be having lessons.
Thanks for yr thoughts.

fatback

EEK! posted in the wrong place. Sorry. Dear mod, can you please move?

Edited February 25, 2010 by fatback

[Doddy]

If you can find a decent 5 string Upright,then by all means go for it.
Just be aware that the neck on a 4 string is significantly different than
an electric,and a 5 string is even wider,so you'd probably be getting tired
pretty quick initially.

[gnasher1993]

I've learnt on a 5 string and haven't had any problems. I can play 4 strings just fine as well.

EDIT to say it can be very tiring (especially when starting out), perhaps more so than a 4 string.

Edited February 25, 2010 by gnasher1993

[PedalB]

Hi,
interesting question,and one that very few people will be qualified to answer,as very few learned to play on a fiver.Whilst fivers have been around for a long time they never really caught on that much with orchestral players-many of whom use the low c attachment for the e string instead.Fivers are more popular with the jazzers many of whom go for a high c
inplace of the low b. If youve been used to bass guitar, the neck of a normal DB is going to feel very thick ,and the neck on a purpose built fiver even thicker.There are a few five string DB players on this forum , hopefully one or two will respond to your question.

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='Doddy' post='757267' date='Feb 25 2010, 04:43 PM']If you can find a decent 5 string Upright,then by all means go for it.
Just be aware that the neck on a 4 string is significantly different than
an electric,and a 5 string is even wider,so you'd probably be getting tired
pretty quick initially.[/quote]
I pretty much agree with this. One other thing to consider is that DB 5ers are often significantly bigger than a lot of 4 strings- its not uncommon for them to be 4/4 or even 5/4 and have an extra inch or two of scale length. My DB is a 4/4 with a scale length of ~43" and so is even more physical to play than a "standard" (insofar as ther is a standard!) sized DB.

For what it's worth though, I don't see myself ever going back to 4- I don't have a lot of experience with extensions but the ones I have tried seemed massively inconvenient to play. As ever though, YMMV.

[JTUK]

5 st DB's make perfect sense to me, so if you can handle it ...?

[fatback]

[quote name='JTUK' post='757621' date='Feb 25 2010, 09:46 PM']5 st DB's make perfect sense to me, so if you can handle it ...?[/quote]

Great info, thanks.

Can a fiver be bowed normally?

[velvetkevorkian]

Yes, although your technique has to be cleaner as there's less space (horizontally and vertically) between the strings.

[endorka]

Just to present a different point of view:

I am not entirely convinced that starting on a 5 string bass is such a good idea, one reason being that the vast majority of method books and teaching material is for the 4 string instrument, and learning that is complicated enough without adding other factors in. Adding another string adds significantly to the complexity and size of the instrument - as Kyle says, bowing becomes trickier (and it is tricky enough already!), and it can often be difficult to figure out how to integrate the B string into exercises based around a 4 string instrument.

I would be wary of assuming you require a low B from your experience of bass guitar playing, as the fundamental frequencies and tone produced from notes on a DB are far more resonant, especially when amplified. An amplified low B on a DB is outrageous, indeed most bass speakers cannot reproduce it well at all, and players often end up using them sparingly, or for special effect.

I've certainly rarely come across situations requiring a low B; you get the occassional notes in classical music, often when reading parts written for cello, but it is considered acceptable to play these an octave higher if you have a four string. In jazz the low B is just not a requirement at all. Of course, your needs may be different!

My main concern is that with a low B, you end up with something that is occassionaly useful, but a pain in the backside most of the time.

Jennifer

[fatback]

[quote name='endorka' post='758034' date='Feb 26 2010, 11:37 AM']Just to present a different point of view:

I am not entirely convinced that starting on a 5 string bass is such a good idea, one reason being that the vast majority of method books and teaching material is for the 4 string instrument, and learning that is complicated enough without adding other factors in. Adding another string adds significantly to the complexity and size of the instrument - as Kyle says, bowing becomes trickier (and it is tricky enough already!), and it can often be difficult to figure out how to integrate the B string into exercises based around a 4 string instrument.

I would be wary of assuming you require a low B from your experience of bass guitar playing, as the fundamental frequencies and tone produced from notes on a DB are far more resonant, especially when amplified. An amplified low B on a DB is outrageous, indeed most bass speakers cannot reproduce it well at all, and players often end up using them sparingly, or for special effect.

I've certainly rarely come across situations requiring a low B; you get the occassional notes in classical music, often when reading parts written for cello, but it is considered acceptable to play these an octave higher if you have a four string. In jazz the low B is just not a requirement at all. Of course, your needs may be different!

My main concern is that with a low B, you end up with something that is occassionaly useful, but a pain in the backside most of the time.

Jennifer[/quote]



Hmm. Thanks for that Jennifer. It didn't occur to me that I mightn't need the B string in the way I feel I need it for the BG now.

Mabe it wouldn't be so smart to complicate somehting that's already going to be a challenge.

[27 frets]

Can a fiver be bowed normally?
[/quote]
I asked my teacher similar questions about 4s/5s when purchasing my DB.
5 strings are used in orchestral situations, and he much prefers 5 strings over extensions on the E string.
However, my teacher's view was definitely that clean bowing technique is harder to develop on a 5-string, because the angle between each string becomes closer, so he strongly advised learning on a 4 string.
If you're not bowing though, I'd guess that 5-strnigs are not so tricky

[chrkelly]

I'd say it makes no difference if you're starting from scratch, both 4s and 5s will feel equally alien to you. Fair enough it's harder to pick out a single string with the bow on a 5, but once you're used to it the closeness makes string crossings smoother, faster and easier. 5s are common in orchestras, especially in Germany where people play 5s almost exclusively. Oh and will always find a use for the low notes. For the type of work I do, I wouldn't get booked if I didn't have a fiver or an extension.

[endorka]

[quote name='chrkelly' post='758344' date='Feb 26 2010, 04:05 PM']5s are common in orchestras, especially in Germany where people play 5s almost exclusively.[/quote]

There is definitely a bias towards either the C extension of 5 strings depending on country/culture - do you know why? Certainly I don't think there are any 5 string double basses in any of the major Glasgow orchestras, but I'd say at least half of them half C extensons.

Which do you prefer yourself?

Jennifer

[chrkelly]

It's weird isn't it, it's the same with bows, I doubt you'd ever see anyone playing French in Germany and vice versa but here in the UK it's split pretty much evenly. In France they play a lot on those Quenoil style basses and go for a very soloistic sound with loads of overtones. Here it's all about deep fundamental.

I prefer the C extension but I'm probably biased that way as that's what I play on the vast majority of the time. That and there's just something satisfying about hanging off the scroll of your bass for the low stuff. Makes you feel you're playing like you really mean it.

[Owen]

You cannot spell Bass without a B.

[endorka]

[quote name='chrkelly' post='758419' date='Feb 26 2010, 05:18 PM']It's weird isn't it, it's the same with bows, I doubt you'd ever see anyone playing French in Germany and vice versa but here in the UK it's split pretty much evenly. In France they play a lot on those Quenoil style basses and go for a very soloistic sound with loads of overtones. Here it's all about deep fundamental.[/quote]

I've definitely noticed the propensity for the deep fundamental in orchestral double basses here as well. I find it interesting as the sound I've gravitated towards is like the French style you mentioned; quite light, with a lot of overtones, a bit like a cello. This is at least in part because I do quite a lot of amplified arco playing, where the lighter sound seems to project more. Having a darker tone seems to add to much "woofiness" when amplified, even on the G-string, where I definitely don't want it to do this.

It still blends in fine with a double bass section in the orchestra, and I think the brighter tone allows me to hear myself better in that situation. I guess it wouldn't if everyone had that kind of sound though :-)

[quote]I prefer the C extension but I'm probably biased that way as that's what I play on the vast majority of the time. That and there's just something satisfying about hanging off the scroll of your bass for the low stuff. Makes you feel you're playing like you really mean it.[/quote]

The C extension makes more sense to me also - essentially because it is not in the way when you don't need it.

Jennifer

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='owen' post='758743' date='Feb 26 2010, 11:53 PM']You cannot spell Bass without a B.[/quote]
So a four string would be an Ass?