PA Equipment

[Kyron]

Hi guys... This is a bit of a cry for help... I been tasked with purchasing our first PA system. Here's my limitations and possible requirements:

- Price minimum/limit: £300-700
- Primarily Vocal amplification, but possibility of Instrumental Mic (G****rs, D**ms etc.)
- Venues of up to 500 people (on average), maybe more

Some of you guys have a lot more experience than me in the world of private functions and local gigging than I have and so I would hugely appreciate some guidance from the forum masters!

Cheers Guys

Ky

[Dubs]

Shameless plug Selling a flightcased QSC RMX1450 here if you're interested - [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=78118"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=78118[/url]

Great amp for a PA and all you'd need after would be a couple of good passive speakers.

[razze06]

Certainly not a master here, but i've been in your very same position not too long ago.

I found gumtree to be a great source for this kind of things. Lots of djs and bands upgrading or folding, so plenty of choice.

If you're going to put guitars and drums through it, you'll need a mixer with plenty of inputs, at least 8 i'd say, and plenty watts in your speakers! In my not so expert view if you're playing venues that big you need a lot of decibels for your money! No less than 600W i'd say, probably more.

Good luck

[Kyron]

[quote name='Dubs' post='761933' date='Mar 2 2010, 04:07 PM']Shameless plug Selling a flightcased QSC RMX1450 here if you're interested - [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=78118"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=78118[/url]

Great amp for a PA and all you'd need after would be a couple of good passive speakers.[/quote]

Thanks for the Reply Dubs- I'll keep it in mind

[Kyron]

[quote name='razze06' post='761943' date='Mar 2 2010, 04:18 PM']Certainly not a master here, but i've been in your very same position not too long ago.

I found gumtree to be a great source for this kind of things. Lots of djs and bands upgrading or folding, so plenty of choice.

If you're going to put guitars and drums through it, you'll need a mixer with plenty of inputs, at least 8 i'd say, and plenty watts in your speakers! In my not so expert view if you're playing venues that big you need a lot of decibels for your money! No less than 600W i'd say, probably more.

Good luck[/quote]
okok... so 8+ channel mixer, 600w+ power amp/Speakers. I guess what I'm really looking for is someone flogging a whole set-up worthy of my requirements... hmmm.. To gumtree!!!

oh, and I'm glad I'm not the only one!

Cheers matey

[razze06]

[quote name='Kyron' post='761964' date='Mar 2 2010, 04:40 PM']okok... so 8+ channel mixer, 600w+ power amp/Speakers. I guess what I'm really looking for is someone flogging a whole set-up worthy of my requirements... hmmm.. To gumtree!!!

oh, and I'm glad I'm not the only one!

Cheers matey[/quote]

That's what I found, a function band that folded and had a full quality PA gathering dust and dampness in a garage in deepest darkest Fife

[jim_bass]

If you want something compact - I like the look of the soundcraft gigrac 1000. You get 2 x 500W power amps - reasonable spec and if you need to expand it you can pull it out of the case and put it into a larger rack case.

[url="http://www.gigrac.com/gigfacts/gigrac1000.htm"]http://www.gigrac.com/gigfacts/gigrac1000.htm[/url]

[JPJ]

Dont ignore Behringer. I picked up a used pair of Eurolive BA215 400w two-way powered tops, basically Mackie SM clones, for £250 on eBay. Great cabs and more than up to the task as vocal PA for a five piece rock band.

[Bankai]

I would recommend picking up some active speakers for ease and simplicity. Studiospares would be a great company to look at and I highly recommend their own brand.

[BassBunny]

There you go.
Add a mixer and job done.
[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gemini-Amp-Speakers-1000w-Compressor-Flight-case_W0QQitemZ250588792707QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item3a58418783#ht_500wt_975"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gemini-Amp-Speakers-...83#ht_500wt_975[/url]

[Kyron]

[quote name='BassBunny' post='762398' date='Mar 2 2010, 11:38 PM']There you go.
Add a mixer and job done.
[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gemini-Amp-Speakers-1000w-Compressor-Flight-case_W0QQitemZ250588792707QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item3a58418783#ht_500wt_975"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gemini-Amp-Speakers-...83#ht_500wt_975[/url][/quote]
Wow- No kidding!! that's a whole loada kit in one package- I'll speak with the Guys ASAP
Thank you

[BassBunny]

[quote name='Kyron' post='762433' date='Mar 3 2010, 12:08 AM']Wow- No kidding!! that's a whole loada kit in one package- I'll speak with the Guys ASAP
Thank you [/quote]

And believe me for a 500 person venue you will use every ounce of it.... and possibly more....

[throwoff]

£700 seems VERY low for a 500+ person venue
especially when you take into account mics'
cables for everything
spare cables
Stands etc etc

I run a PA rental company and I reckon my rig which was over £3000 might struggle in a 500+ venue
If your interested im willing to take time and put together a full list of what you need as close to budget as possible for you just because I'll enjoy the challenge!

Let me know

[Kyron]

[quote name='throwoff' post='763072' date='Mar 3 2010, 04:00 PM']£700 seems VERY low for a 500+ person venue
especially when you take into account mics'
cables for everything
spare cables
Stands etc etc

I run a PA rental company and I reckon my rig which was over £3000 might struggle in a 500+ venue
If your interested im willing to take time and put together a full list of what you need as close to budget as possible for you just because I'll enjoy the challenge!

Let me know[/quote]
Well I guess considering that you're in the business you're the person to ask!
But yeah, I'd really appreciate that dude, thank-you
Ky x

[Kyron]

Oh, and to add- I already have:

- 2x Mics
- Some XLR cables
- 2x Mic stands

[throwoff]

[quote name='Kyron' post='763303' date='Mar 3 2010, 09:10 PM']Oh, and to add- I already have:

- 2x Mics
- Some XLR cables
- 2x Mic stands[/quote]

I have made a rough list

Ill post the final one tomorrow
Its becoming more of a challenge than anticipated

[Kyron]

[quote name='throwoff' post='767831' date='Mar 8 2010, 12:39 PM']I have made a rough list

Ill post the final one tomorrow
Its becoming more of a challenge than anticipated[/quote]

That's good news!

[Kyron]

[quote name='throwoff' post='767831' date='Mar 8 2010, 12:39 PM']I have made a rough list

Ill post the final one tomorrow
Its becoming more of a challenge than anticipated[/quote]

That's good news!

[xgsjx]

I recently saw a pair of Peavey Hysis II & a 1k power amp for sale in crack convertors for £400. Was a little tatty looking but would clean up ok. Add a mixer for @ £200 & you have an ample pa on a budget.
My band use a 1k pa that the singer picked up from gear4music for @ £750. has rebranded carlsberg speakers (soundpro or summit), but it does the job for vocals, drums, guitar, mandolin & violin but I wouldn't put my bass thru it & tend to just turn my combo to suit.

[throwoff]

due to hard drive brain fart may be couple more days!
sorry!

[throwoff]

Ok here is what I have however I'm going to make a statement first. This is my personal recommendation, I am familiar with every item on this list personally and feel the quality of the overall rig is great especially in your price range. I have used thomann simply because everyone knows them and they have a good 30 day money back deal so if you ordered this exact list and tried it you can return it.

Even if you dont use this exact list be aware everything on it I would call 'essential' ie even if you order something totally different I believe you would need something to fill each space.

[u]First and foremost desk and speakers[/u]!

[b]Peavey Pro 15 messenger speakers and a TMix powered desk.[/b]
This is bundled together with the speakon cables and gives you 375W per side into 15" full range speakers. For this budget its nigh on impossible to get something with subs im afraid without a massive loss of overall quality to the components and to be brutally honest you dont need them for a straight vocal PA. I use 15" tops and always mic the kick and often run a bass DI in small venues and I dont bother taking my subs 15's can handle it!
The desk does have 2 unpowered outs as well so the option is there to add Powered subs or passive subs with a power amp later.
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/peavey_pro_15_messenger_serie_bundle.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/peavey_pro_15_mes...erie_bundle.htm[/url] PRICE £525.33
[b]Speaker stands[/b]
2 with a bag (I still use a set of these I had over 2 years now! quality for the money)
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_bs2211b_boxenstaenderset.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_bs2211b...staenderset.htm[/url] PRICE £37.20

[u]Mics! [/u]

[b]Drum Mics Superlux DRK A3 pack[/b]
I still use these for my drum mics (a bigger pack admitedly but the same range) 3 mics; one kick 2 snare/tom
Ideal for smaller gigs as a kick can be essential. snare probs wont use too much if your drummer has a nice one but always have the option
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/superlux_drk_a3.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/superlux_drk_a3.htm[/url] PRICE £24.50

[b]T-Bone MB75[/b]
As the name suggest this is a rather naughty SM57 copy. Rumour has it they are made using old shure machinery in China and having side by sided my one of these with a 57' I'm not sure thats just a rumour. Great for guitar cabs, random instruments you might need. I have used this on snare, guitar cabs, tambourine, brass and even as a vocal mic its just a great all rounder.
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_mb75.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_mb75.htm[/url] PRICE £28.13
[b]
BeyerDynamic Opus 29 (bundle)[/b]
I chose the bundle version simply because you get a 6m XLR for about a quid! and an extra cable is always helpful. For my money this is the best budget mic on the market today. I have 3 of these and an SM58 which was my original mic set for vocal. The 58 invariable got left in the box, I just think these sound nicer
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/beyerdynamic_opus_29_s_bundle.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/beyerdynamic_opus_29_s_bundle.htm[/url] PRICE £34.48

[u]Cables +Stands![/u]
Now the boring bits that hold it all together!

[b]10x SSNAKE SM10[/b]
Basic 10m XLR cable. Does the job and buying 10 means you should have spares (essential as the first time you gig without at least 2 spares 2 cables will break!) They come in a bunch of colours if you fancy it (I use red ones for kick and snare just to keep them in my eye) But traditional black works!
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_sk233-10.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_sk233-10.htm[/url] PRICE £57.20 (for 10)
[b]
Millenium MS 2002 low stand[/b]
Short stand for kick mic (sometimes guitar cab but more often than not kick!)
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_ms2002.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_ms2002.htm[/url] PRICE £12.61

[b]4x Millenium MS 2005 regular stand[/b]
You said you have a couple already so I put down 4, gives you 6 total which is plenty for most occasions. Tough and reliable stands
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_ms2005_mic_stand.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_ms2005_mic_stand.htm[/url] PRICE £33.76 (for 4)
[b]
Mic clips x4 [/b]
Old fashioned rubber bits. These are strong gripping and have no moving parts like some of the budget spring ones ie they wont snap!
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_mikrohalterung.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_mikrohalterung.htm[/url] PRICE £10.16 (for 4)

TOTAL! £763.37

OK I went over budget! But this as close to it as I can get!

Of course as people have said you can always go second hand and a lot of people do, I have found some bargins on the bay and elsewhere but you dont usually have a returns policy! Some stuff I bought and wish to God I could take it back even though it was very cheap just because I'll never use it.
Mic's especially and speakers are liable to be 'ragged' and with the amount of counterfeits on eBay I would be wary.


Anyway thats my suggestion. I found it quite enjoyable If anyone else wants me to do something similar just drop me a PM

[Phaedrus]

IMO, it's a miracle that you put together a new PA for £737.

My suggestion to OP is to get reading as much as possible before you spend any money.

This is a great place to start: [url="http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/f/5/8685/"]http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/f/5/8685/[/url]

Nominate someone to take up the mantle of PA guy, and get familiar with all things PA [i]before[/i] you guys spend any money.

The gear suggested by Throwoff will be fine up to a point for [i]small[/i] gigs, but if you think you'll regularly be playing to 500 people, you should be looking at a [i]much[/i] bigger PA.

For 500 people, I'd suggest that subs would be essential (assuming you're playing rock-ish stuff, and hope to put bass & kick drum through it?), and that your system should be able to deliver 100dB to the first 20 feet in front of the band. Also, think of the future - how many inputs do you conceive you could need? Will you need effects? Cases, racks, cables, stands?

There's a couple of idioms used in the Pro SR industry:

Buy right, buy once.

The wrong gear at the right price is still the wrong gear.

FWIW, our PA system cost over €7000 (for just the audio stuff - we also bought a modest light rig), but when we tried to sell it en masse, we barely got offers of €3000. We've kept it - new band on the go.

Peavey RQ2318 mixer (not state of the art, but perfectly functioning)
2 x Yamaha P5000S 700w per channel stereo power amps (2800w total system power - 1400w mains, 1400w subs)
DBX DriveRack PA speaker processor
2 x TC Electronic M300 multi effect units
DBX 231 dual 31-band graphic eq
2 x JBL JRX125 main speakers
2 x JBL JRX118s subwoofers
4 x HK Audio RS122MA active monitors

We actually have 4 of the subs, and had been using the two Yamaha amps to power those 2 each), while using a loaned JBL MPA750 to power the mains - that was 4300w total power.

We also have 4 SM58s, an SM57, mic stands, all the necessary speaker & mic cables, a drum mic set (the original set was a Fame set for maybe €300 or so. Current set is an Audix one - €900 . . . ), a 19" rack, two flight cases for all the cables & stands, a couple of DI boxes, etc.

We play venues with maybe 400 punters, and those at the back are definitely getting way reduced volume. Even just 20-25 feet in front of the band, volume is noticeably reduced.

In all honesty, and I hate to say it, but I can't see any PA set-up that can be bought for €700 even remotely cutting it for 500 punters, if you're putting anything but vocals through it. Even then, I' bet the folks at the back will be struggling to hear you guys.

Sorry


HTH.

Mark

[ardi100]

The Thomann setup is exactly what I was looking at for setting up a rehearsal room, though.

I'm assuming it would beat one of those Yamaha stagepass or Fender Passport thingies hands down?(Sorry for the hijack!)

[throwoff]

[quote name='ardi100' post='776316' date='Mar 16 2010, 03:55 PM']The Thomann setup is exactly what I was looking at for setting up a rehearsal room, though.

I'm assuming it would beat one of those Yamaha stagepass or Fender Passport thingies hands down?(Sorry for the hijack!)[/quote]

by a long bloody way!

[throwoff]

[quote name='Phaedrus' post='773192' date='Mar 12 2010, 10:37 PM']For 500 people, I'd suggest that subs would be essential (assuming you're playing rock-ish stuff, and hope to put bass & kick drum through it?), and that your system should be able to deliver 100dB to the first 20 feet in front of the band.


HTH.

Mark[/quote]

I disagree, there is a difference between dB and audibility. Something that projects well can be worth far more than something thats just very loud.

Your JRX subs are a prime example, I use the exact same ones (only with Eon Tops) frankly in a testing room I was not impressed. Far too much low end. No clarity and a distinct bass rumble.

However first time I took them out (running only 200W) I was blown away not a case of huge volume but the way they move the air add's the right depth.

Having said all that and read your post a couple of times I think as with all PA threads I ever join on any website no way is the right way. So many people use different ideas and have different theories its hard to judge.