stevie Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 [quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1361522750' post='1986828'] From the horse's mouth, indeed. Always a welcome thing here, especially such a well considered reply. [/quote] You really don't recognize an advert when you see one, do you, Random? He even managed to include details of his UK stockist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomBass Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361554629' post='1987533'] You really don't recognize an advert when you see one, do you, Random? He even managed to include details of his UK stockist. [/quote] Don't worry I did recognise it - after all it was rather obvious. But I think he's allowed a little publicity, don't you? He's not the only one who does it, is he? Anyway, I still think his response was well considered and explanatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 For anyone who is near Leicester and wants to hear them, I am happy to let you try them, otherwise Mark Stickley is only an hour down the road in Warwick..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Well I'm glad about that. You're wrong about the "well considered and explanatory" thing because he completely sidestepped my point about the poor measurements of the cab in Bass Gear Magazine by repeating what Bill had said and claiming that measurements are not meaningful unless everyone uses the same methods. But I can forgive you for that So, while a vendor is allowed a certain leeway to promote his products on this site (unlike many others, I would add), these vendors should in return play the game and respond to reasonable criticism when it's levelled at them. Edited February 22, 2013 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomBass Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 My opinion is wrong? Oh dear. Anyway, perhaps you should address your concerns directly to the horse's mouth - you may get a response. Even if it is wrong. Re the advertising thing, there are members here who advertise their products or services in their signature - so every single post counts. I don't have a problem with it. Is that wrong too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Well, Random, maybe it's never happened before but I'm sure you'll get over it. I did provide an explanation of why I thought you were mistaken and you're welcome to disagree. I've aired my concerns and we'll see if any information is forthcoming. Yes, the advertising thing does bug me a bit, especially when it gets excessive. If I'm having a pint in a pub, the last think I want is somebody trying to sell me insurance or flashing their corporate logo at me. But I never used the word 'wrong'. I do think it would be a good idea for Basschat to charge companies for displaying their business logo. That way at least Basschat would benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Baer Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361559898' post='1987682'] Well I'm glad about that. You're wrong about the "well considered and explanatory" thing because he completely sidestepped my point about the poor measurements of the cab in Bass Gear Magazine by repeating what Bill had said and claiming that measurements are not meaningful unless everyone uses the same methods. But I can forgive you for that So, while a vendor is allowed a certain leeway to promote his products on this site (unlike many others, I would add), these vendors should in return play the game and respond to reasonable criticism when it's levelled at them. [/quote] Ok, I must have misunderstood the criticism that was leveled at me, so if you will explain what you meant, I am more than happy to answer any questions you have about our products. I don't know if you are saying the cabinet measured poorly, or if the measurements themselves were poor. I certainly don't consider it sidestepping to say that test results only have meaning when one understands the method and manner in which the testing was conducted. [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361564839' post='1987796'] Yes, the advertising thing does bug me a bit, especially when it gets excessive. If I'm having a pint in a pub, the last think I want is somebody trying to sell me insurance or flashing their corporate logo at me. But I never used the word 'wrong'. I do think it would be a good idea for Basschat to charge companies for displaying their business logo. That way at least Basschat would benefit. [/quote] Instead of the pint in a pub analogy, think of it this way. You walk into a booth at NAMM to check out some gear and the guy there walks up to you with their corporate logo on their shirt. Do you find that shameless promotion or acceptable behavior? My logo and signature identifies me as the owner of a company that makes bass gear. As I'm on a forum that is all about bass gear, I see no harm in having my logo as my avatar. Others like myself display our company logos on the site because BassChat allows us to do so. It provides users of these forums a chance to interact directly with the people that make the gear they own, or are interested in and I can't see how that would not be a benefit to everyone involved. Of course it allows for a bit of self promotion and benefits us manufacturers, but it also benefits users of the forum. I think BassChat recognizes that it benefits the bass community as a whole and draws players to their site, so it's a win for both sides, as long as everyone plays by the rules. [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361544212' post='1987289'] Nothing against subjective opinions when they are unbiased and from someone who knows what they're talking about, but measurements can explain much of what you are hearing that you can't necessarily put your finger on. They can also highlight problems, if you know how to interpret them. As you say, the big picture. [/quote] I disagree. A user posting a review doesn't have to be an audio engineer to be able to relate his or her direct experience with a product and have it be relevant. When shopping for gear, I like to read about players personal experience with gear I am considering, whether they are working pros, or casual weekend warriors. And I don't mind that opinions are biased. If I'm considering a new bass, a Sadowsky, for example, the fact that the players using these instruments are so excited and passionate about them tells me something useful about the product. Edited February 23, 2013 by R Baer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamfist Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361564839' post='1987796'] Yes, the advertising thing does bug me a bit, especially when it gets excessive. If I'm having a pint in a pub, the last think I want is somebody trying to sell me insurance or flashing their corporate logo at me. But I never used the word 'wrong'. I do think it would be a good idea for Basschat to charge companies for displaying their business logo. That way at least Basschat would benefit. [/quote] I think you are being rather unfair to Mr Baer here. The analogy of sitting in a pub and an insurance salesman coming up to you with some hard sell has no comparison to the situation here. This is a bass guitar forum, and this is a thread specifically started to discuss his products. I cannot see a negative aspect to his contribution to it. It is blatantly obvious even to a dead dog that any manufacturer will not be able to be totally objective about their own stuff (and that is always going to be part of the deal), but even so, I am thrilled that we can get the maker to be part of the discussion about his gear. I only wish more manufacturers were interested in taking part in online forum discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 [quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1361611756' post='1988161'] I am thrilled that we can get the maker to be part of the discussion about his gear. I only wish more manufacturers were interested in taking part in online forum discussions. [/quote] +1. It's hardly like the Jehova's have come knocking at the door when you've just got in from work and sat down having your tea. We're kinda at the Church with them already and they've come over for a nice friendly chat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Hi Roger, Well [b][i]I[/i][/b] appreciate your input to basschat. Thank you for joining us. By the way, nIce cabs. You must be doing something right for BFM not to be able to find fault with them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barkin Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 [quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1361611756' post='1988161'] I think you are being rather unfair to Mr Baer here. [/quote] FWIW, so do I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I really appreciate Roger taking the time to post on here and on Talkbass. He even took the trouble to send me an email thanking me for buying my two ml112's, can't fault him or his products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1361615163' post='1988226'] Hi Roger, Well [b][i]I[/i][/b] appreciate your input to basschat. Thank you for joining us. By the way, nIce cabs. You must be doing something right for BFM not to be able to find fault with them! [/quote]I never said they were as good as mine. What I can say is that if one is going to make a cab of this sort, a 1x12 2-way direct radiator, this one was done right. That does put it in a decided minority of what's out there, as IME at least 90% of the rest are flawed in one fashion or another. Edited February 23, 2013 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluRay Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Full marks to any manufacturer that takes the time to say hello on a forum. I sort of hope that somewhere theres an ampchat where the manufacture community pick faults with bass players that they don't know much about. That would seem fair somehow :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Baer Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Appreciate the support guys. Stevie seems like a good guy and makes some valid points, but while I don't want to turn this into a thread debating the merit of posting information like frequency response curves, polar plats, or waterfall charts, I will say this. We don't post detailed specifications on our speaker cabs simply because I don't feel that the information is all that useful in the context of the way we bassist buy our gear. It's my opinion that most bassist don't have the engineering knowledge to interpret all that technical data and then get an accurate picture in their head of how that gear will sound with their instrument. That's certainly not implying that I think bassist are too stupid to understand that information. I just don't don't think that many players care what a cab looks like on paper and most bassist would rather concentrate on the music rather than learning audio engineering. I can honestly say that in three years of doing the NAMM show, not one player has ever asked me for the technical data on our cabs. The vast majority of the players there never even ask any questions at all about the gear. They just simply plug and start playing. They either like what they hear, or they don't. I think that's the best approach of all. If I made PA gear and was claiming that our system has ruler flat response for 10Hz to 50K, then yes, I think it's my responsibility to show proper documentation backing up those claims. But, I make bass amps that, just like our guitar counterparts, are full of all kinds of voicing and character quirks. I believe the only way for you to tell if those quirks will work for you, is by either trying it out for yourself, or by looking on the internet at the opinions and experiences that others have had using the gear. Regardless of what test has been done, or how someone interprets the results, I stand behind our designs 100% and make no excuses for their performance. If someone really has an issue with our gear, or our policies, then they have every right to not purchase from our company. Edited February 23, 2013 by R Baer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share Posted February 23, 2013 I've just noticed that I started this thread way back when. It's about time I chipped in again. So... none of my bands are particularly loud. Would a single ML112 do for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1361655133' post='1989001'] I've just noticed that I started this thread way back when. It's about time I chipped in again. So... none of my bands are particularly loud. Would a single ML112 do for me? [/quote] I guess there is loud and loud..... but I don't like to run cabs close to the limit as it makes everything much harder work. Some kit will do it...in technical terms, but the sound suffers, IMO. If the kit is regarded as being comparable to a good 210..?? then it wouldn't cope with my band on its own..would be my feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1361655133' post='1989001'] I've just noticed that I started this thread way back when. It's about time I chipped in again. So... none of my bands are particularly loud. Would a single ML112 do for me? [/quote] A single ml will give you a suprising amount of volume and low end, if you play small bars or have pa support then one will probably do the job providing that you have a head that pumps out decent wattage at 8 ohms. I regularly play in a 400 seat auditorium with in house pa and 1 cab does it so comfortably, I do find that 2 does sound a lot fatter though! An ml112 will be similar in volume to a top end 210 such as a berg, but with more low end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Baer Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Agreed. One cab may do it for you, depending on how loud your band is. Think of it as comparable to a good 210 box. Personally, I would rather use two cabs running comfortably, with some headroom left, than run one cab balls out and hope things don't get louder as the night goes on. I recently had a player use the ML115 on a gig that he usually needs his 310 box for and he said that it handled the gig just fine, with just as much, if not more low end. It all depends on what your definition of "not particularly loud" is. Edited February 23, 2013 by R Baer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) [quote name='R Baer' timestamp='1361586509' post='1988074'] Ok, I must have misunderstood the criticism that was leveled at me, so if you will explain what you meant, I am more than happy to answer any questions you have about our products. I don't know if you are saying the cabinet measured poorly, or if the measurements themselves were poor. [/quote] I didn't level criticism at you personally. The cabinet measured poorly in the Bass Gear test. The measurements look fair to me but perhaps you’d like to clarify the matter by posting the set of measurements Bill did for you. What measurements did he do exactly? I am pleased that you are more than happy to answer questions about your product. [quote name='R Baer' timestamp='1361586509' post='1988074'] Instead of the pint in a pub analogy, think of it this way. You walk into a booth at NAMM to check out some gear and the guy there walks up to you with their corporate logo on their shirt. [/quote] We’re clear then. You consider Basschat to be a marketing channel comparable to a stand at Naam and I consider it to be more like a pub where like-minded musicians can meet to chat, exchange experiences, offer and receive advice. Did I say you shouldn’t wear your logo here? Don’t make a meal of it, Roger. [quote name='R Baer' timestamp='1361586509' post='1988074'] I disagree. A user posting a review doesn't have to be an audio engineer to be able to relate his or her direct experience with a product and have it be relevant. When shopping for gear, I like to read about players personal experience with gear I am considering, whether they are working pros, or casual weekend warriors. And I don't mind that opinions are biased. If I'm considering a new bass, a Sadowsky, for example, the fact that the players using these instruments are so excited and passionate about them tells me something useful about the product. [/quote] You disagree with what? That measurements are useful? Don’t you measure your amps? Edited February 24, 2013 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 [quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1361611756' post='1988161'] I think you are being rather unfair to Mr Baer here. [/quote] Perhaps you’d read again the bit you’ve quoted and tell me where the word ‘Baer’ appears. I was asked whether I thought “the advertising thing was wrong?” and I said I wasn’t a big fan. Straight answer to a straight question. Roger is playing to the gallery here - rather well if I may observe. [quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1361611756' post='1988161'] but even so, I am thrilled that we can get the maker to be part of the discussion about his gear. I only wish more manufacturers were interested in taking part in online forum discussions. [/quote] I suppose we all have to get our thrills somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 [quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1361611756' post='1988161'] I think you are being rather unfair to Mr Baer here. The analogy of sitting in a pub and an insurance salesman coming up to you with some hard sell has no comparison to the situation here. This is a bass guitar forum, and this is a thread specifically started to discuss his products. [/quote]+1. Roger didn't start a thread about his product, he merely responded to one. If you want to see that no manufacturer will come here hauling those who do over the coals is a good way to be sure of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Have just re read the review that Tom and Alan wrote, I think a score of 4.5 out of 5 and comments like "this is one of the finest cabinets which I have evaluated from a technical perspective" and "there really is nothing to complain of, from a technical perspective, and much to praise" are very positive, all from people who are picky as can be about their gear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Take it all on the chin. In this instance, one poster has raised a few points, and the Maker has answered. Not blood spilt and honours around even. I'd far rather that state of affairs than a blanket fawning acceptance of a product for whatever reason.. Since Baer is new-ish to our market, then I like to hear the warts and all story...IF there is one... and I think the product shows enough to still be in the game. I'd say well done, Stevie and well done Mr Baer. I think the points from both were pertinent not frivolous, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulflan0151 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Wonder if Bass Direct will be getting the head in? Looks nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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