Vintage Fenders (or even just "old" ones)

[Conan]

Not that I'm greedy or anything!

There's a Fender bug around. I'm not sure it's actually bitten me yet, but it is circling in a slightly menacing way and eyeing me with intent...

So just what is it about these old Fenders? Why is it that guys who flogged their Ps and Js ten years ago are now regretting it or trying to buy then back for three times as much? Is it the quality? In which case why did they sell them?! Or is it that as they get older (the basses that is!) their value (or at least their [b]perceived[/b] value) increases?!

The ones that are for sale at £1500 plus... are they all good?

And the old "all original" chestnut. What exactly are you "allowed" to do to your bass before you ruin its "vintage" value?

And is it jusr Fenders? Will my 1986 Status, for example, be worth thousands in ten years or so? And if not, why not?

What I'm basically saying here is "is it worth me selling/trading a bass I love in order to finance the purchase of an (I suspect) inferior guitar that might be worth lots of money in the future?"

Your thoughts. Give them to me!

Edited March 9, 2010 by Conan

[chris_b]

Everyone should own a Fender at sometime. They are the original, the start of it all. Most music hasn't moved far from the rock and roll years so the original equipment can still cut it in most situations. If I hadn't moved to a 5 string I'd still be happily playing my Precision.

Don't get too hung up on "old"! Years ago I played an early 1950's P bass at the Bass Centre and it felt, played and sounded awful! Unfortunately Fender has been too lazy for too long which means you have to go looking for a good one.

If you're interested, there's a spotless 1952 P bass on Ebay at the moment for £18000!!

[Conan]

[quote name='chris_b' post='768929' date='Mar 9 2010, 09:58 AM']Everyone should own a Fender at sometime. They are the original, the start of it all. Most music hasn't moved far from the rock and roll years so the original equipment can still cut it in most situations. If I hadn't moved to a 5 string I'd still be happily playing my Precision.[/quote]

Yeah, I think that's what has got me thinking. All these boutique/handmade/custom basses around. They look beautiful and sound amazing, but often they can tend to disappear into the mix in a band situation - especially live (IMO).

The Fender guitars, and especially the P, just seem to sit better in the mix! Its as if they were designed to specifically fit into a certain frequency range that no other instrument can fill. By accident or design? I dunno - but they certainly do.

Many "star" musicians, who could have their pick of instruments are still using Fender basses. Steve Harris? Geddy Lee? Duck Dunn? OK, they have endorsement deals but surely they could afford to use their instrument of choice?

OK, I'm just thinking out loud here. I'm also starting to convince myself that Fender is the way to go!!

[wateroftyne]

I certainly don't think that vintage Fenders sound better than new ones.

I *do* think they look cooler (subjective), and are a far better investment (not really subjective).

[Conan]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='768948' date='Mar 9 2010, 10:15 AM']and are a far better investment (not really subjective).[/quote]

Does there come a point where buying them does NOT make financial sense though? Will they continue to appreciate indefinitely or have some of them actually reached their peak value already?

Your point about leaving your guitars to your daughter is one of the causes of my shift in position, y' bastaad!!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Conan' post='768952' date='Mar 9 2010, 10:18 AM']Does there come a point where buying them does NOT make financial sense though? Will they continue to appreciate indefinitely or have some of them actually reached their peak value already?[/quote]
Who knows? I hope not.

I do know that the second you buy a new one, it's worth less than you paid...

[chris_b]

Duck Dunn's actually playing his own signature Lakland these days!

I don't know what people mean when they say the bass gets "lost in the mix". I've never had that happen to me. Maybe it's because I used EV speakers for over 25 years!

Maybe most "top" players aren't too hung up about what they play because their signal goes through a mountain of EQ processing before anyone else hears it, ie FOH and monitoring desks.

[The Burpster]

the old 'is _____ Fender worth it?' question bounces around fairly frequently but I think most sensible opinions were aired in this thread.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=62155&hl=fender%20why&st=20"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...20why&st=20[/url]

Personally now, I dont think they are. Then again I'm not a Fender-head so they fall into the same catagory with me as many other mass produced basses (what I mean by that is they have no special appeal to me).

[Low End Bee]

My 2007 Precision p***es all over the 1969 I owned apart from the 'mojo' looks and the stupid S1 switch which is gone now.

Fenders just seem to do the job. That said I wouldn't be averse to a Precision alike from another brand if I wasn't content with the one I've got now.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Low End Bee

[rjb]

I wouldn't pay a premium for "mojo", but then Fender's stuff is very good these days so I don't really see the need.

Picked up a 2009 US P5 earlier this year and it plays wonderfully. May get a Jazz 5 next year.

[Happy Jack]

Playing an old Fender removes all sorts of pressures that should be irrelevant anyway, but somehow seem to matter SO much.

I played a new venue with a sort-of-new band a couple of weeks ago, and I'm lucky enough to have to choose which bass to take to a gig. I didn't know the venue or what sort of crowd turns up there, I didn't know how well we'd play or how well we'd go down there. So I removed as many variables as possible.

Turning up with a 1974 Fender P-bass removes pretty much all questions of judgment or taste from the situation. No one ever sneered at an old P-bass, no one ever winced at the tone of an old P-bass, no one ever asked "[i]Why did you bring THAT then?".[/i] It's the musical equivalent of wearing a pair of comfortable Levi's and some Adidas trainers ... people take one look at them and then focus instead on the person wearing them.

Now mix in the fact that you need to be seriously incompetent to lose money on a vintage Fender, so essentially ownership is FREE, and it becomes something of a no-brainer.

[Bassnut62]

I reckon there are rubbish Fenders from all years and there are truly great ones from some periods, but not all periods.

As they get older, they often seem to me to get better.
I'm not sure why; but it could be the pups age well or maybe it's the resonance of the wood beds in better over time.
The neck profiles changed and I think the pup positions changed alot too; so maybe that has something to do with it.

As for value, clearly they can be a good investment - IF you get a good one; but it does have to be original. I reckon a refinish can be OK if done well; but even that will reduce value. Alien bridges, pups, machine heads, necks, pick guards are a total no-no IMO, if we're talking holding value. Collectors always want max originality in any market, just watch Antiques Roadshow!

Another trick is look out for non-Fender Fenders, i.e. original MM Stingrays or G&Ls. There is no question that Leo had the midas touch and was a true genius and it seems to me there was much better quality control when Leo owned the companies. After he left the bean-counters often seem to have taken over and reduced quality of parts. Also some of the magic seems to walk out the door with Leo. Early G&Ls seem like a great investment for the future and are seriously good basses.

Lastly, if you want a great 2010 Fender and a future classic, buy a Sandberg California. I got a California JM4 Deluxe a few years ago and it is a better guitar than any of the Fenders I've owned and it sounds great too; but it can't quite nail that old Leo sound. I reckon he would have been happy to see his DNA being carried on in the Sandberg 'Fenders'.

So here are the best periods as I see them:
Fenders pre 74
Musicmans pre 80
G&Ls pre 91

Fenders seem to have got better again from about 95; but that Leo magic isn't there IMHO.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Bassnut62

[Conan]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='769006' date='Mar 9 2010, 11:12 AM']Turning up with a 1974 Fender P-bass removes pretty much all questions of judgment or taste from the situation. No one ever sneered at an old P-bass, no one ever winced at the tone of an old P-bass, no one ever asked "[i]Why did you bring THAT then?".[/i] It's the musical equivalent of wearing a pair of comfortable Levi's and some Adidas trainers ... people take one look at them and then focus instead on the person wearing them.[/quote]

That's a fascinating insight! Thanks for that. I'd never thought about it, but I know exactly what you mean!

[xilddx]

Before you buy, TRY! And do plenty of research on what nasties you should be looking for. Feel, tone, weight, build quality, materials, neck shapes and sizes are all over the place, so watch out. I played a filthy dog of a 3-bolt Jazz in a shop the other day, too, wobbly neck, bent tuner, massive neck, £2,850.

Be very careful.

Personally, I can't see many valid reasons for buying one apart from investment and the inexplicable lure of an old Fender.

[Musicman20]

If I had the spare cash I would probably look out for a nice P or J. It would take me years though, as Im very picky.

For now, Im extremely content with the 2008-2010 Fenders....they finally seem to have nailed it again. Yep, there are still some dogs....but if you look around and dont accept the first one, you will find a beauty!

[martthebass]

I too keep finding meself attracted to owning a pre 1975 Fender Jazz. Don't know why; my current 3 basses are good examples of their genre and do their jobs well. Also, I once went through Music Ground (Doncasters) extensive stock of [exclusively] sunburst 70's Ps and Js when looking for a US Fender back around 1987 and couldn't find a decent example which sort of put me off a bit. The oldest Fender I've owned was a 1982 Jazz that wasn't all that (wasn't as good as the JV Precision it replaced TBH but I had to have a US made one ) and was quickly dispatched to fund a (brand new) 1990 Stingray that was superior in just about every way.

Maybe the attraction is 'free ownership', 'nostalgia' or 'Street Cred' (as discussed above), I don't know.......all I do know is that I need to get out of this phase before I do something silly like sell my perfectly good basses to fund a potential 'dog'.

[Conan]

[quote name='martthebass' post='769183' date='Mar 9 2010, 01:22 PM'].......all I do know is that I need to get out of this phase before I do something silly like sell my perfectly good basses to fund a potential 'dog'.[/quote]

That sounds like damn good advice!!

[Jerry_B]

As the basses get older, it'll become more apparent which vintages were the best. This is partly the case already. So just because it's an old Fender, it doesn't mean it's a good Fender (as has already been mentioned). And then we also have non-US Fenders, which also have their own vintages. I think this means that their pedigree will remain fairly wide ranging in terms of their value, so at the end of the day you'd have to figure out which ones will be worth more in future. I mean, how much will an early Fender be worth in, say, 30 years? 50 years...?

[martthebass]

[quote name='Jerry_B' post='769196' date='Mar 9 2010, 01:28 PM']As the basses get older, it'll become more apparent which vintages were the best. This is partly the case already. So just because it's an old Fender, it doesn't mean it's a good Fender (as has already been mentioned). And then we also have non-US Fenders, which also have their own vintages. I think this means that their pedigree will remain fairly wide ranging in terms of their value, so at the end of the day you'd have to figure out which ones will be worth more in future. I mean, how much will an early Fender be worth in, say, 30 years? 50 years...?[/quote]

I think 'Vintage' is highly related to perception and fashion also. And changes verrrrry quickly. 4 years ago I sold my 1990 Ray (in good nick) for a touch under £600, I've noticed people looking for £900+ for this age now. I wouldn't expect much more than that for my 30th Ray which is both better made and sounds superior (IMHO). At the end of the day sometimes you have to accept that you are buying a 'perception' (not an Overwater one) albeit a perception that has transferable value.

[Jerry_B]

By 'vintage' I was thinking more in a sense of older basses, and the fact that they may be becoming rare in terms of their availability on the market. And whilst it's true that there is a faddish element, good, older basses will no doubt go up in price - especially the ones that are also a bit rare.

And 'perception' clouds all things of 'value' - it's just a sheen of symbolism that adds (or perhaps detracts) from an object's worth to another person or a market.

[Davo-London]

I've played dozens of old Fenders, mainly Jazzes, and I would say that the whole Mojo/tone attribute is real.

There are wood reasons, both cut and quality why some old Fenders sound great, but also I belive that wood aging does make a difference. Whether it's enough to notice in a mix I'm not so sure. But there are lots of very good players that play old Fenders and they presumably could choose more exotic basses.

The mystic quality is fun though isn't it. There's room for all. Why worry, just go with the tone that excites you.

Did anyone watch the Rod Stewart special the other day. The bass player had exquisite tone and he was playing a Fender hybrid. Can anyone identify that bass?

Davo

[OutToPlayJazz]

I've been on the quest you're on several times. I've lost count of how many Fenders (and other brands) I've bought and sold in the last few years. And my conclusion?

There's nothing like a Status. You can buy a cheaper new Fender or a hideously expensive "vintage" one at any time, but my advice is that if you've got a good Status that you like, hang onto it for grim death. There's really nothing like them.

Of course, it's all down to personal preference, but now having done it and owned most other basses (a lot of Fenders included!), I wouldn't trade my Status basses for anything.

[lojo]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='769006' date='Mar 9 2010, 11:12 AM']Playing an old Fender removes all sorts of pressures that should be irrelevant anyway, but somehow seem to matter SO much.

I played a new venue with a sort-of-new band a couple of weeks ago, and I'm lucky enough to have to choose which bass to take to a gig. I didn't know the venue or what sort of crowd turns up there, I didn't know how well we'd play or how well we'd go down there. So I removed as many variables as possible.

Turning up with a 1974 Fender P-bass removes pretty much all questions of judgment or taste from the situation. No one ever sneered at an old P-bass, no one ever winced at the tone of an old P-bass, no one ever asked "[i]Why did you bring THAT then?".[/i] It's the musical equivalent of wearing a pair of comfortable Levi's and some Adidas trainers ... people take one look at them and then focus instead on the person wearing them.[/quote]

Although I agree, and this is how the world works in general, it is sad we have to think like that

The flip is that you have to play all the better if your gear is quality

[Jerry_B]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='769430' date='Mar 9 2010, 04:57 PM']Of course, it's all down to personal preference, but now having done it and owned most other basses (a lot of Fenders included!), I wouldn't trade my Status basses for anything. [/quote]

I think I've gotten to the same point - although about the Peavey T-40, rather than the Status. I've played all sorts of basses in a desperate search for that certain something, but only recently have found one that actually suits me and also has the sound I've been searching for for [i]ages[/i]. You do find T-40s for sale over here, but some people are asking silly prices for them, despite the fact that you can pick 80s-era examples in the US for $300 or less. In the end I think 'vintage' anything can be bandied about a bit too much in the wrong way - it's just spiel. That said, an older well-made bass is usually going to be worth something. I just get irked when some people try to play up factors that aren't (yet) something which affects a market price.

[xilddx]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='769430' date='Mar 9 2010, 04:57 PM']I've been on the quest you're on several times. I've lost count of how many Fenders (and other brands) I've bought and sold in the last few years. And my conclusion?

There's nothing like a Status.[/quote]
Me too, there's nothing like a Warwick.