Extension cab vs bigger cab

[harmonicfish]

Having recently started playing small gigs, the secondhand <random brand you've never heard off> combo that I've been using for rehearsals has not really been up to the job.

Having now played around with various lightweight heads, I've recently come across the Ibanez Promethean and I'm quite impressed (prefer it to the shuttle 6.0, pros and cons vs an LMII but it's cheaper, would love an RH450 but that's not happening any time soon).

Question is whether I get it in its combo form (with a 1x10 cab, but the head can still be used standalone), with a view to getting an extension cab later (more versatile, can stick to just the combo for rehearsals), or whether I get a larger (possibly second hand) cab to start with.

Playing it through the combo, although the volume and bass was good for a 1x10, it was far more satisfying plugging it into the 210T cab that came with the shuttle. The 1x10 started to sound awkward at higher volumes.

My other concern would be, if I did get the combo, would anything larger than another 1x10 extension cab cause problems? If I put the same amount of power into that 110 as say a 210 extension cab (which can obviously take a lot more power), do I risk hitting the excursion limit of the 110 whilst barely moving the 210?

Any recommendations for a cheap lightweight 210?

Cheers

[51m0n]

IME a 1x10 on its own is very likely to struggle with even pretty small gigs.

The built in speaker is in all likelihood 8 ohm, any extension box you add will be the same, so the 1x10 will get an equal amount of power as any extension cab you plug in with it.

So in short you are right in that the limiting factor will still be that 1x10 cone.

There are some 1x12 cabs which handle humoungous amounts of power (Berg IP112 is the daddy) but they are stupendously expensive.

Cheap and Lightweight are not often found together I'm afraid.

The TC210 is pretty cheap for what you get, and the Aggie DB112 and GS112 are reasonably cheap for the performance, and although not neo lightweight, they arent back breaking.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='51m0n' post='771839' date='Mar 11 2010, 05:11 PM']There are some 1x12 cabs which handle humoungous amounts of power (Berg IP112 is the daddy) but they are stupendously expensive.[/quote]

Remember that power doesn't always mean volume though.

My suggestion would be work out a budget then go from there. If you're thinking about upgrading over time, you really can't go wrong by getting a cheap head and a cheap cab or two then you can upgrade as you can afford it.

I'm sure I've seen a Hartke LH500 and a Hartke 1x15 and 4x10 going on here for a total of about £350 (separate thread for the head and the cabs). They get good enough reviews to start you on and with that setup you shouldn't have any volume problems. There's nothing to stop you upgrading one thing at a time, maybe a little GK or MB here and a Eden or EBS there and you'll be sorted.

[51m0n]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='771859' date='Mar 11 2010, 05:26 PM']Remember that power doesn't always mean volume though.

My suggestion would be work out a budget then go from there. If you're thinking about upgrading over time, you really can't go wrong by getting a cheap head and a cheap cab or two then you can upgrade as you can afford it.

I'm sure I've seen a Hartke LH500 and a Hartke 1x15 and 4x10 going on here for a total of about £350 (separate thread for the head and the cabs). They get good enough reviews to start you on and with that setup you shouldn't have any volume problems. There's nothing to stop you upgrading one thing at a time, maybe a little GK or MB here and a Eden or EBS there and you'll be sorted.[/quote]

Big +1 (although an IP112 is louder than anything that size has any right to be)

My son has an LH500, its hugely loud for the cash outlay.

Also buy second hand it works out massively cheaper.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='harmonicfish' post='771831' date='Mar 11 2010, 05:03 PM']Any recommendations for a cheap lightweight 210?[/quote]

You might want to check out Beedster's recent thread [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=75821"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=75821[/url] from post #9 onwards, where the merits of the Ampeg SVT210AV are discussed. These are 26lb, handle 200W@8ohms and are currently about £260 new. [url="http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product.asp?id=8876"]http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product.asp?id=8876[/url]

[harmonicfish]

[quote name='51m0n' post='771863' date='Mar 11 2010, 05:28 PM']Big +1 (although an IP112 is louder than anything that size has any right to be)

My son has an LH500, its hugely loud for the cash outlay.

Also buy second hand it works out massively cheaper.[/quote]

Thanks for the input guys

Sadly the LH500 in the for-sale forum seems to have sold recently.

How about an LH500 (should another one come up) or maybe an Ashdown LG1000 like this...
[url="http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~name~Ashdown-Little-Giant-1000,-Ex-Display~ID~12596.asp"]http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~name~A...ay~ID~12596.asp[/url]

Combined with a TC Electronics RS210
[url="http://www.tcelectronic.com/rs210techspecs.asp"]http://www.tcelectronic.com/rs210techspecs.asp[/url]

I liked the tone of the promethean, and I'm not sure how either of the amps above compare (not seen them anywhere to try out), but in terms of being heard I assume this has got to be better for a very similar price. (And then purchase the TC electronics amp later when I have that much cash burning a hole in my pocket... yeah probably not gonna happen).

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='harmonicfish' post='772178' date='Mar 11 2010, 10:03 PM']Thanks for the input guys

Sadly the LH500 in the for-sale forum seems to have sold recently.

How about an LH500 (should another one come up) or maybe an Ashdown LG1000 like this...
[url="http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~name~Ashdown-Little-Giant-1000,-Ex-Display~ID~12596.asp"]http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~name~A...ay~ID~12596.asp[/url]

Combined with a TC Electronics RS210
[url="http://www.tcelectronic.com/rs210techspecs.asp"]http://www.tcelectronic.com/rs210techspecs.asp[/url]

I liked the tone of the promethean, and I'm not sure how either of the amps above compare (not seen them anywhere to try out), but in terms of being heard I assume this has got to be better for a very similar price. (And then purchase the TC electronics amp later when I have that much cash burning a hole in my pocket... yeah probably not gonna happen).[/quote]

I think if you get a bass head for around the £200 mark and it can pump out enough volume, then you can't really go wrong. I've never used LGs though so I can't comment specifically on them. I'd expect it to do the job though and a pretty decent job at that.

As for the RS210, I tried on with my GK 700RB-II head and they just lacked any kind of life or punch. It was obviously that combination because my GK sounds great through most things and the RH450 seems pretty popular through the RS210 but my head isn't lacking any punch so IME the cabs only sound good with certain heads (though the same can probably be said of most gear). If you're spending £200 on a head then getting something that isn't the best is ok because it's not a lot of money, the TCs aren't very cheap cabs though so I'd make sure that they sound like you want them to before you invest.

Just IMO, if you have £600ish to spend, you're better putting £400 on a head and £200 on a cab than vice versa. Having an average head with a good cab isn't going to help you in the studio or when you turn up to a gig and another bassist has his stack but doesn't want you to use his head. If you have a peek around here there's plenty of MarkBass heads as well as others that will do a great job and give you more flexibility about borrowing gear when you have the chance.

[JTUK]

Whatever you do aim for a capability of around 200-300 watts min for a pub sized venue.
whether you achieve that with 1 cab or 2 doesn't really matter.

If money is the overriding issue, get an amp that can produce around 300watts into 4, use 2x8 ohms cabs for the full power and
just the one cab at 8 for the smaller gigs. You can buy the other 8 ohm cab at a later date.

Bang for buck at second hand prices, Markbass are taking some beating, IMV. Most will do 500 into 4 ohms as well.

[51m0n]

I'm going to muddy your waters in a typically annoying way here. Sorry....

I agree 300w is your minimum realistic output to do the job IME IMO. That is 300w output given the impedance of the cab you are plugged in to. You definitely do not want to be running out of headroom, and that can and will hapopen will 200w regularly IME.

However cabs are not all equal (obviously).

In fact the cab is the biggest differentiator in real world performance more often than not.

For instance the rehearsal space I go to has a Hartke 410 in it. It is utter dross, my rig has to work twice as hard (at least) and requires vicious eq to get a reasonable tone, compared to the (way more expensive I admit) Berg ae410, which sounds perfect pretty much flat.

The real performance of a cab cannot be measured by a simple watts RMS value, thats a thermal limit only. The efficiency of the design and the excursion of the speaker have more to do with the actual performance of a cab than the RMS rating.

In terms of spend, unless you intend to outlay more cash soon, laying out way more on your amp than cab is bad decision IMO.

Unless you get a great deal on a cab!

The LH500 is a great, simple amp that chucks out real oomph for the money. The ashdown 1000w mini head you linked to I dont know much about, but that looks to be a very very low price for such a head, I wonder why? Is it 2x500w or 1x1000w for instance? If the former you would need 2 cabs I suspect. Several of the 1000w mini amps use that compromise to get their output so high (Tecamp Puma 1000w springs to mind) You'd better check.

I'll also admit I'm not that up to date on quality cheaper cabs right now, I thought the TC 210 was pretty good when I had a blat through it, but second hand you should be able to pick uop something really nice for around £200-£300.

What is your budget?

I would say that there are a lot of cabs that need the 'right' amps to drive them well. Some amps sound good through nearly everything and a few (usually very expensive) cabs tend to make any amp sound its best (mmmm Bergantino or Epifani spring to mind). At your budget you are going to have to get the right match up to deliver the tone closest to what you want I'm afraid, hence why so many people are constantly swapping gear about.

Edited March 12, 2010 by 51m0n

[ThomBassmonkey]

The LG is 2x500w I believe.

As for cabs and heads, IMO decent heads can be had for cheaper than decent cabs, you can pick up something like a MB/GK for under £400 2nd hand and it'll last you forever without you ever feeling like it's not up to standard, should always sound great too. Then get a cheapy cab for around £150 which you can upgrade later with the decent head and you've wasted £150.

If you spend less on a head and more on a cab, you'll want to upgrade the head and unless you're sticking with a single 2x10 (which are significantly cheaper) then you'll end up buying a new head AND new cabs when you want a bigger rig.

If you're happy with a single 2x10 then it's probably not going to make much difference which is bought with a mind to upgrade (if you know your perfect rig then you can work out which will lose the least money in the long run), if you're going to be upgrading cabs (either getting a 4x10 or another 2x10, which you should theoretically match to the first) then unless you're sure that you're going to want to match the first 2x10, you should think of it as a loss.

[51m0n]

So taking on board what ThomBassmonkey and I are saying, if you dont want to waste money, save up enough to do it properly first time out (albeit secondhand) rather than cutting corners now. Cos it'll bite you in the wallet later if you do

Edited March 12, 2010 by 51m0n

[Musicman20]

Hi

Ill chip in a bit. Id make sure you basically try and save as much as poss the go secondhand. A good cab will keep its value. A cheaper cab will never really shine.

A few years back I had a great amp, and basses, but poor cabinets. I never really looked into it that much. Once I started getting more serious about bass, I sold the cabs, (they were immaculate but lost a fair bit due to the fact they were run of the mill cheap Peavey cabs) and the newer cabinets made a huge difference.

I had what is classed as the ultimate 4x10....Berg HS410. Great cab, very expensive.

Sold it to fund my TC RS210 x 2. I was that impressed I bought the RS212 as well.

TC dont mess about...Im really impressed. There are clips of the RS210 vs very very expensive cabs and even the owner of all them admitted the RS210 was incredibly good, esp for its size and price. Its isnt neo, which for me was a plus point. Dont take my word on neo though. High end neo cabs are great, I just prefer ceramic.

A 1x10 will really struggle IMO.

The Hartke head recommended is your best step, then a quality 210 or 1x12 to add to. Even a 1x12 will struggle though.

[harmonicfish]

Hmmm, lots of advice now... which is all greatly appreciated, but I don't think I can follow all of it at once without causing some sort of paradox in my brain

As for saving up enough to do it properly first time, I'd love to, but that's involves finding out what a 'proper' setup is for me (which, by the sounds of it, I have no chance of getting right first time).

I realise second hand is a more sensible route to go down. Sadly I seem to be drawn to all the shiny new things that won't be sold on cheaply for a while yet (e.g. The Promethean, the TC electronics kit, and now I've made the mistake of reading through some threads about the Barefaced Midget too).

On the plus side for the Promethean, if I were to get the combo, I could always keep the 1x10 as a nice compact cab for home use, and the actual head should have plenty of capacity for whatever I plug it into in the future.

Anyway, I've got a nice big google docs spreadsheet of specs and prices building up... time to hit some more shops for a play around I think.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='harmonicfish' post='773017' date='Mar 12 2010, 06:02 PM']Hmmm, lots of advice now... which is all greatly appreciated, but I don't think I can follow all of it at once without causing some sort of paradox in my brain

As for saving up enough to do it properly first time, I'd love to, but that's involves finding out what a 'proper' setup is for me (which, by the sounds of it, I have no chance of getting right first time).

I realise second hand is a more sensible route to go down. Sadly I seem to be drawn to all the shiny new things that won't be sold on cheaply for a while yet (e.g. The Promethean, the TC electronics kit, and now I've made the mistake of reading through some threads about the Barefaced Midget too).

On the plus side for the Promethean, if I were to get the combo, I could always keep the 1x10 as a nice compact cab for home use, and the actual head should have plenty of capacity for whatever I plug it into in the future.

Anyway, I've got a nice big google docs spreadsheet of specs and prices building up... time to hit some more shops for a play around I think.[/quote]

I recently did the same thing.

You cannot go wrong with TC and Markbass. I tested a lot of gear. Obviously we all have very different tonal goals though.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Just a quick note about the Promethean, I believe it only has one output (well, one speakon and one jack that can't be used together) so if you're going to get that, you need to make sure that you have a single cab that can do the job. I might be wrong though, never used one myself.

There are other options than the ones mentioned too, it might be worth just buying a bigger combo, then getting an extension cab cab later if you feel you need it.

Ashdown, Gallien-Krueger, MarkBass, Eden, Hartke and many others make decent combos that'll be giggable for various prices and a lot of them come with extension sockets.