I'm Too Sexy For My Bass...Right Said Fred

[Musicman69]

Clear as mud

[Twigman]

[quote name='Doddy' post='776360' date='Mar 16 2010, 03:46 PM']Same note enharmonically-different function technically.[/quote]
but the same note all the same...

So the 3rd in C#maj is E# not F?
it'll always be F to me...maybe it's because I was brought up on piano...

My initial post was merely pointing out that although 4#s key signature denotes Emajor, it also denotes C#minor...

that is all

Edited March 16, 2010 by Twigman

[Doddy]

[quote name='Twigman' post='776367' date='Mar 16 2010, 03:53 PM']but the same note all the same...

So the 3rd in C#maj is E# not F?
it'll always be F to me...maybe it's because I was brought up on piano...[/quote]

The 3rd in C#major is always E#. The 4th is F#,and you don't have both an F and an F#
in a major scale.
It's nothing to do with playing piano or not. The theory is the same every instrument.

Edit..... Yes 4 sharps is also C# minor,but this tune is in E major not C# minor.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Doddy

[Twigman]

[quote name='Doddy' post='776372' date='Mar 16 2010, 03:57 PM']The 3rd in C#major is always E#. The 4th is F#,and you don't have both an F and an F#
in a major scale.
It's nothing to do with playing piano or not. The theory is the same every instrument.[/quote]
Having never been formally trained I'm obviously not tied to these whacky conventions that name notes according to the key being played.....as far as I'm concerned the 3rd fret on the D string and the white note to the left of the 3 black notes is an F irrespective of which key is being played and E# is a semitone higher than E and in my mind will always be F irrespective of which key is being played.

[Twigman]

[quote name='Doddy' post='776372' date='Mar 16 2010, 03:57 PM']but this tune is in E major not C# minor.[/quote]
but they are the same key (tonally) there is no difference.

Emaj = C#minor

[OutToPlayJazz]

I have to step in here, as you clearly have no idea about music theory, Twigman...

In the key of E Major you have the following notes in the scale - E F# G# A B C# D# E

In the key of C# Minor (the relative minor) you can have two variants of the scale...

Melodic Minor (Ascending) - C# D# E F# G# A# B# C# (Descending) - C# B(natural) A(natural) G# F# E D# C#

Harmonic Minor - C# D# E F# G# A B# C#

So they are clearly not using all the same notes. The minor scales have a minor third and a raised 7th note. (6th & 7th raised ascending and then lowered again descending in the melodic minor.)


As for the B# / C question, yes they are the same note to your ear (although some academics will try and tell you they should sound very slightly different!), but they are written differently. They're what we call "enharmonic equivalents." So you can have as a for instance, two scales like F# Major and Gb Major which will be written completely differently, but will sound identical.

You get a similar thing in chromatic scales - All the notes ascending are sharpened where necessary, but flattened on the way down, even though you're aurally playing the same notes. Strange, but true.

It's purely academic, but quite correct. As with playing techniques, there's a right way and a wrong way with music theory.

Edited March 16, 2010 by OutToPlayJazz

[Doddy]

[quote name='Twigman' post='776394' date='Mar 16 2010, 04:18 PM']but they are the same key (tonally) there is no difference.

Emaj = C#minor[/quote]

Again... Same notes different context.




Edit..... Thanks Rich

Edited March 16, 2010 by Doddy

[OutToPlayJazz]

*Tips a knowing smile to Doddy* - We can but try, mate

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='776404' date='Mar 16 2010, 04:28 PM'](although some academics will try and tell you they sound different!)[/quote]
Surely not in equal temperament? I mean, yes, enharmonic equivalents sounded different before E.T. was developed, but surely not now?

[Twigman]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='776404' date='Mar 16 2010, 04:28 PM']It's purely academic,[/quote]
The best rock'n'rollers are always the ones who bunked off school

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote]Surely not in equal temperament? I mean, yes, enharmonic equivalents sounded different before E.T. was developed, but surely not now?[/quote]


I remember doing an orchestral course with the cellist Christopher Bunting many years ago & he had the opinion that the enharmonic sharp should sound that little bit sharper to emphasise the key and vice versa with the flats in such cases. I don't go with that idea myself, but he was one hell of a musician, so who am I to argue?

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='Twigman' post='776417' date='Mar 16 2010, 04:44 PM']The best rock'n'rollers are always the ones who bunked off school [/quote]

*Grins* Glad I stayed and studied, then!

[Twigman]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='776420' date='Mar 16 2010, 04:46 PM']I remember doing an orchestral course with the cellist Christopher Bunting many years ago & he had the opinion that the enharmonic sharp should sound that little bit sharper to emphasise the key and vice versa with the flats in such cases.[/quote]
Not all that easy on fretted instruments....bending strings will only mange to sharpen the notes

[OutToPlayJazz]

Quite true, unless you're seriously accurate at bending strings!

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='776420' date='Mar 16 2010, 04:46 PM']I remember doing an orchestral course with the cellist Christopher Bunting many years ago & he had the opinion that the enharmonic sharp should sound that little bit sharper to emphasise the key and vice versa with the flats in such cases. I don't go with that idea myself, but he was one hell of a musician, so who am I to argue? [/quote]
Ah, right, so he's playing outside equal temperament. Fair enough in a string section or choir (I certainly used to do it on the violin and when singing -- tenors get all the sexy inner harmonies ), but when you're up against the brass and wind who can't do that... you're going to sound tits. To put it bluntly.

[OutToPlayJazz]

Haha! Absolutely, BottomEndian - I play a lot with the Nick Ross Orchestra (the key players are all the original crew from the Sid Lawrence Band!), but they all go on and on about string players and how they always play sharp. I was doing a show with a couple of them last week and they said they could hear me pulling the violin and cello back into concert pitch, LOL! It's actually a little known fact, but the professional wind/brass players always pitch off of the bass player!

[Musicman69]

Thanks for that post on Ascending/Descending minor scales OTPJ
Just playing with it there and found some sweet 'blue' notes.
Must brush up on my theory

[OutToPlayJazz]

I'm going to have to start doing theory lessons on skype! £25 per hour, anyone?