Chords help

[frank]

Hello everyone im new to reading music, still learning ,(im also doing ear training) but id like to get to the stage of writing songs down when i learn them.It would help both my reading and my ears

I dont have a problem learning bass lines or melody lines even simple solos when i put the effort in, and i can see how i will be eventually able to write (or transcribe) these lines.

But when it comes to chords im often in the dark as to what im playing over. ill mostly know what the root is,and if its major or minor.Or on a simple tune with one key if its maj7 min7 or dom7.

In a live setting im flying blind and just playing what sounds good or sticking to the one or two notes i know fit.

So im wondering how everone else goes about it, is it a matter of hearing and knowing the sound
are there methods to go about it or to help me go about it.

Hope im not rambling to much any help would be appreciated

[Musicman69]

Hi Frank (from a fellow Irishman!)

Some theory will help you so check a thread here, its 'The Majors Bass Boot Camp' top of the list in Theory section.

For playing over basic chords you will find the root, third and fifth generally sit in there well along with the octave of course, if its a 7 chord add the 7th and mix it up (without getting yourself mixed up I hope!)

Best of luck and stick with it.

John

[Pete Academy]

Try contacting Doddy, as he really knows his stuff.

[XB26354]

I've been transcribing music almost as long as I've been playing bass. Like any other activity, the more you do, the better you get.
As has been mentioned, some theory knowledge helps when trying to identify chords.
Very loosely, chords are usually built in intervals of thirds. The bottom note (when a chord is spelled in order - we can rearrange the register in which each note appears, but for now just think bottom to top) is called the root, then comes the 3rd and 5th. This is called a triad. We can continue to add intervals of a third to get the 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th, which is as far as we go (a 15th is the root, only two octaves higher). Generally speaking a third interval can be minor (3 frets or semitones from the note you're on) or major (4 frets or semitones up). This means we can build a lot of different chords!
Practically speaking, how so you go about learning to hear chords? By playing them! By far the easiest method is to get yourself a keyboard or piano and work out what each triad, 4-note 7th chord etc., sounds like. The more notes in a chord, the richer more complex it sounds.
This is what I tend to do:
1. Find the bass note of the chord (easy, we're bass players, right?)
2. Find the top note of the chord.
3. Play these two notes together and add a major third. Sound right? Ok, nearly there. Sound wrong? Try the minor third. If neither sounds right at all then it's likely to be some kind of sus chord or an inversion (see the Major's articles for more info).
4. As the majority or chords are built in thirds there are simple triads inside even the most complex chords. Don't believe me? B, D and F# make up a B minor triad. However it can appear in Gmaj7, Emaj9, E9, Cmaj9#11, C9#11, Amaj13, A13 and A13sus! There are also lots or slash chords available that use a triad over a different bass note - e.g., A/B, E/C. So I would try to hear triads inside the chord.

If all that sounds like too much, then just get a keyboard and muck around. Learning chords on bass is like painting your hallway through your letterbox!

[Doddy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='779365' date='Mar 19 2010, 07:10 AM']Try contacting Doddy, as he really knows his stuff.[/quote]

Cheers Pete.

For transcribing chords,I would suggest first of all finding the root note,then the melody note(which is often
the top note)and then find the harmony(major,minor,7 etc.).
It's easier to do this on a keyboard as you can voice the entire chord cleanly and easily experiment with
different harmonies.

To stop you from 'flying blind' in a live situation,there are two things that I'd recommend.
You need to become familiar with the sounds of the various chord tonalities,and this can really only be
done by playing and listening to them. The more you hear certain chords,the more you will begin to
recognise their individual sounds. Again,this is best done on a keyboard.

You also need to become really comfortable with arpeggios-which are just chord tones played individually.
When you have them down,it will allow you to explore the chords more than just the one or two notes that
you know are 'safe'. You can do this on the bass.

Like everything else it comes down to practise. The more you do it,the easier it becomes.

[frank]

Thanks for the help lads
Im ok (for my level) with the theory end of it , intervals ,building chords, spelling scales ,arpeggios ect ect,probably spent to much time on this instead of the practical what does x y or z actually sound like

Its the practical how to im after like Doddy and XB26354 have said
find the root. find the top note. is it maj .or min. if not its sus ect

Is piano the be all end all for ear training or is it possible on guitar as i have more experience on guitar than piano.
But i suppose piano gives you one hand to chord with and the other to figure out whats going on.

By seeing how everyone else does it im trying to get myself on the right track
it seems that seeing is the problem and hearing is the answer
so it looks like ill be needing a keyboard.

At the moment im using the Gary Willis ear training book, are there better methods or is it just a case of get the stuff
learned whatever way you can.

Thanks again

Frank

[Doddy]

[quote name='frank' post='780346' date='Mar 19 2010, 11:51 PM']Is piano the be all end all for ear training or is it possible on guitar as i have more experience on guitar than piano.
But i suppose piano gives you one hand to chord with and the other to figure out whats going on.[/quote]

With Piano it's all laid out in front of you and you can easily play a root note and move the harmony
around.There are a lot more options for you to experiment and you can hear the difference more
clearly than on a guitar.

I'm not a piano play(far from it-I can't play one song on one!)but I understand the layout of the keyboard,
and have enough knowledge to be able work out chord types and melodies(independent of each other).

[Musicman69]

I'll get me coat so.. (shouldnt have mentioned those 7ths!)

[frank]

"I'll get me coat so.. (shouldnt have mentioned those 7ths!) "

Sorry John i should have explained my self better

Now that i have the ball rolling can anyone explain more about the melody note and finding it
(Sorry if these are stupid or nonsense questions)
does it always relate to the vocal or other melody that is happening over a chord

For example if i play "A" as the melody note over a C maj chord does this mean that the chord should be changed to C6
or maybe C13 i suppose depending on what the 7th is

If the melody note is a root or a fifth can the chord be almost anything with the same root or fifth
What happens when theres more than one melody note, are melody notes always from within the arpeggio or scale of the chord

Cheers

Frank

Edited March 21, 2010 by frank

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='frank' post='781306' date='Mar 21 2010, 12:54 AM']For example if i play "A" as the melody note over a C maj chord does this mean that the chord should be changed to C6
or maybe C13 i suppose depending on what the 7th is


What happens when theres more than one melody note, are melody notes always from within the arpeggio or scale of the chord[/quote]
If the melody note is A over a C major triad, then for that fleeting moment the harmony is C6. But that doesn't mean you have to change the accompanying chord to C6.

Perhaps you need to understand that within any piece of music the harmonic structure is very much more complex than the chords being strummed by the guitar or played on the piano. But if we tried to include every harmonic nuance in our rhythm section parts, we could end up with a very complicated and mostly unnecessary sequence.
As a general rule we try to abbreviate the accompanying chords to something that works without too many obvious clashes with the melody.
As most pop and rock songs are composed by someone singing along while strumming a guitar, the chances are that he/she will find melody notes that fit comfortably against the relatively simple chords he/she happens to know. Someone like say George Gershwin, who composed at the piano and had a fairly advanced harmonic knowledge, would include melody notes that needed a more complex harmonic accompaniment because he understood the effect they would create.

Melody notes don't have to be in the accompanying chords. But it depends on where in the melody they come.

Let's take this 2 bar example:
A melody of G G# A Bb B Bb A Ab G - all quavers (8ths) starting on the first beat of bar 1, the last G being a semibreve taking up bar 2.
Put a chord of C major against this melody.
On beat 1 we get a straight C chord (melody G over CEG)
The G# is a passing note - fleeting enough not to be too harsh against the CEG triad but effectively creating C augmented.
Beat 2 is an A melody note creating C6. The next note Bb is again a passing note (briefly we get a C7 harmony)
Beat 3 - B natural creates a Cmaj7 harmony
Then we get the same harmonic progression in reverse.

But throughout this melodic fragment, a strummed C major chord will sound perfectly correct. Try it !

Hope this helps !

The Major

[frank]

Thanks Major
This makes sense ,even when i play your melody with the Caug C6 C7 or Cmaj7 it works with only the Gsharp and Bflat notes clashing a little bit here and there (to my ear anyway played on bass)

So the chord is something that dosent clash with the melody, it may or may not have the melody note in it
it maybe a chord the composer feels provides a certain mood or it maybe the only chord the composer knows.

I should go dig out my fake book and have a look at the melodys and chords that go with them
Cheers

Frank

[Musicman69]

[quote name='frank' post='781306' date='Mar 21 2010, 12:54 AM']"I'll get me coat so.. (shouldnt have mentioned those 7ths!) "

Sorry John i should have explained my self better[/quote]

Dont mention it. I didnt realise you were seeking some more advanced info.. which I dont have but glad to see it was forthcoming. Learning from this myself now!

Such a cool website this!

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='frank' post='782964' date='Mar 23 2010, 12:04 AM']Thanks Major
This makes sense ,even when i play your melody with the Caug C6 C7 or Cmaj7 it works with only the Gsharp and Bflat notes clashing a little bit here and there (to my ear anyway played on bass)

So the chord is something that dosent clash with the melody, it may or may not have the melody note in it
it maybe a chord the composer feels provides a certain mood or it maybe the only chord the composer knows.

I should go dig out my fake book and have a look at the melodys and chords that go with them
Cheers

Frank [/quote]
Frank: This brings up another point: VOICING

As you tried my little melody example on the bass, you are going to get a much more unsatisfactory effect from these notes as they are too low in pitch to make real sense, even at the highest pitch possible on bass.

The voicing of a chord will have a huge effect. (There is no "correct" voicing - it all depends on how you want the music to sound.)

If you want clarity in your harmony, its often best to spread the chordal notes, particularly at the lower registers.

This is something of a generalisation, but:
If you look at your fake book melodies you will notice that the longer(held) notes in any tune are mostly chordal notes but there are likely to be many "passing" notes between these held notes, which, if you were to pause on them, would have a distinct clash effect. But as they are fleeting in nature, there will be no discernible dissonance.

The Major

[frank]

Frank: This brings up another point: VOICING

As you tried my little melody example on the bass, you are going to get a much more unsatisfactory effect from these notes as they are too low in pitch to make real sense, even at the highest pitch possible on bass.

The voicing of a chord will have a huge effect. (There is no "correct" voicing - it all depends on how you want the music to sound.)

If you want clarity in your harmony, its often best to spread the chordal notes, particularly at the lower registers.

This is something of a generalisation, but:
If you look at your fake book melodies you will notice that the longer(held) notes in any tune are mostly chordal notes but there are likely to be many "passing" notes between these held notes, which, if you were to pause on them, would have a distinct clash effect. But as they are fleeting in nature, there will be no discernible dissonance.

The Major


Hello again Major
Ive sold off all my gear so at the minute im down to a Bass an Amp and a cab,with the lack of distractions its helped me to get stuck into learning to read ,ear training and learning songs. Im spending a lot less time here on Basschat (even though its a fantastic site full of great info from people like yourself i spend hours here instead of practicing)
Anyway i played the example on bass cause its all i have at the minute but in the next few weeks ill get a keyboard and get stuck in properly and probably have more questions, Ive downloaded some of your lessons they have been highly recommended so that should help too.

Looking at some fake book tunes that are easy enough for me to look at, what you say is true (not that i doubted you)

Thanks for the Help

Frank

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='frank' post='784262' date='Mar 24 2010, 01:24 AM']Hello again Major
Ive sold off all my gear so at the minute im down to a Bass an Amp and a cab,with the lack of distractions its helped me to get stuck into learning to read ,ear training and learning songs. Im spending a lot less time here on Basschat (even though its a fantastic site full of great info from people like yourself i spend hours here instead of practicing)
Anyway i played the example on bass cause its all i have at the minute but in the next few weeks ill get a keyboard and get stuck in properly and probably have more questions, Ive downloaded some of your lessons they have been highly recommended so that should help too.

Looking at some fake book tunes that are easy enough for me to look at, what you say is true (not that i doubted you)

Thanks for the Help

Frank[/quote]
Frank

Well done for starting down the road of learning theory and reading. Believe me its a never ending path. You can never know it all ! (I've clocked up over 50 years of "musical education" so far !) But the confidence you will gain in your musical endeavours should not be under-estimated. Keep at it !

I'm only too happy to help if i can - as are several other musically erudite bass players on this site.

The Major