Custom Built Bass

[dougal]

So here's the story: I get talking to the guys on uglybassplayer.com and over the course of time I was convinced that Grandon Westlund was the man to build me a bass. So I ordered one, waited the required 9 months, and this turned up (about 2 years ago).



There are more pictures here: [url="http://www.gwbasses.com/gallery/Dougal_SC-1_5String.shtml"]http://www.gwbasses.com/gallery/Dougal_SC-1_5String.shtml[/url]

It is absolutely gorgeous to play, balances perfectly, looks great (or at least, I think it does). The problem is the sound. To the extent that it's pretty much become an art piece that sits on the wall hanger & looks pretty. Acoustically it has plenty of top end sparkle: when amplified it sounds dead and lifeless, even with the treble all the way up & new strings on. I'll get some sound samples up to illustrate the problem.

I've tried hooking it up through a different pre-amp (the current one is an [url="http://www.aguilaramp.com/products_preamps_obp2.htm"]aguilar abp-2[/url] - the replacement a 5-pot east j-retro) without much avail - it wasn't noticeably different. Digital modelers can't help the flat sound being fed in.

The question is: what do we think can be done about it? Will new pickups and pre do the job, or is the combination of covered pickups, swamp ash body & purpleheart fingerboard the problem? If it means I start using it I can live with non-matching pup covers. Is it worth it? Should I try & sell it on & buy something (or find someone to swap with) like a 5-string music-man instead? Is there even a market for such a custom build by a relatively unknown builder (I think I have to accept that I'll not get anything like what I paid for it...)

Any ideas gratefully received!

Edited October 2, 2010 by dougal

[lozbass]

If you like the bass and playability is good, I'd stick with it (re-sale on a custom bass like this is unlikely to deliver a good return - as you suggest). Given your location, my suggestion would be a trip to see Martin at the Gallery - he's the person I'd trust the most to offer really sound advice on the feasibility of achieving the tone your seeking (and the options for getting there is it's possible). You could manage to hold on to a very individual instrument, get it to sound how you'd like, and spend a lot less than you'd lose on a sale.

[OutToPlayJazz]

That's a tough one & a real pity being as it's such an amazing looking instrument. I would take it to a really good luthier to look at personally. Someone like Rob Green at Status or John East. Only someone who knows preamps inside out will be able to advise you properly.

On a purely EQ-based note, some preamps need a lot of boost to get the best from them. I know that the Status preamp sounds dull and boring when used flat. On these preamps I use full treble and bass boost with the mids flat and it never sounds too much. Depending on the frequency that the pre runs at, you often need a lot more boost on some in order to bring them to life. In the same token, some preamps sound very harsh if you use too much boost.

Rich.

[green]

well, if the bass sounds good played unplugged, and it's not the preamp, i'd say it's the pickups.

i see your pickups got wooden covers.
i don't know, how much space there is between the strings and the actual pickup. but, being too much away from the strings, it could cause a dull sound.
if your bass has little output, then that might be the case.

if you have the chance to check the bass with different pickups, then i'd do it.

maybe you have another bass with pickups that fit in there (soapbars, or jazz bass type single coils). then you could swap the pickups for a test.

[Mr. Foxen]

Have you heard from Grandon recently? Seems to have vanished.

This was before he had the custom Kent Armstrong's made for his basses, so guessing these are Bartolinis? Heard the have a rep for being rather dark, and a pain to have stuff fit in the same hole.

[Mokl]

If they are Barts in there that might be part of the problem. That's one of the reasons I sold my Sei... I just couldn't take to the tone at all, it was quite lifeless and lacking in useful top-end. I would do as suggested and take it to The Gallery.

[elom]

I had a similar problem with my custom build. Very happy with the luthier, great communication etc. It looked fantastic, it played superbly and sounded sweet acoustically but when I plugged it in it was just wrong. Very low output and the tone was weak and way too trebly.

Took it back and had it re-wired and re-checked (no charge of course). A bit better but when I got it home I quickly decided that no, this was not right. Back we go and this time we get a breakthrough. Long conversation between luthier and pickup manufacturer reveals a mutual misunderstanding around the wiring. 5 minute fix and now, finally, I have a bass that I love.

Which is a very longwinded way of saying, check your pickups and the wiring! Hope you find a solution. If you like how it looks and how it plays, someone will be able to help you sort out the sound.

elom

[alanbass1]

The reason why I have decided that custom made instruments are not for me. I ordered a Zoot once and regretted it on arrival, although much to do with my experience with the builder, but the bass just didn't click with me.

[dougal]

[quote]well, if the bass sounds good played unplugged, and it's not the preamp, i'd say it's the pickups.[/quote]

Pretty much the conclusion I came to: was hoping it's otherwise as they're matching, and an awkward size to get replacements for.


[quote]Have you heard from Grandon recently? Seems to have vanished.[/quote]

Nope: 'vanished' would be an apt description. He does have a habit of it in my experience.

[quote]my suggestion would be a trip to see Martin at the Gallery[/quote]

An excellent idea. I'll give him a ring.

Thanks everyone for your input.

[LukeFRC]

my guess would be summit wrong in the wirring. take it to someone who knows what they are looking at

[green]

[quote name='dougal' post='782389' date='Mar 22 2010, 10:36 AM']an awkward size to get replacements for.[/quote]

well, i guess you could always get a set of smaller pickups plus wood housings that fit your routings.
right ?

[dougal]

[quote name='green' post='782468' date='Mar 22 2010, 12:22 PM']well, i guess you could always get a set of smaller pickups plus wood housings that fit your routings.[/quote]

Absolutely: but that pushes the price up for something which [i]might[/i] not make much/any difference.

Next stop the Gallery.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='dougal' post='782824' date='Mar 22 2010, 10:09 PM']Absolutely: but that pushes the price up for something which [i]might[/i] not make much/any difference.

Next stop the Gallery.[/quote]

Well, try them ugly first, then if it does the trick, work the wood.

[7string]

I had the a similar problem with my Sei.

Long story short, I eventually found out that the pickup was the problem. I looked at Nordstrand (very expensive) and then got in touch with Aaron Armstrong who made the OE. He made a new pickup (at a fantastic price) and the bass just came alive. Couldn't be happier.

If you need/want new pickups, he is the man. Martin knows him well, so hopefully you could get a solution between the 2 of them.

Edited March 23, 2010 by 7string

[Kiwi]

The problem could be down to either pickups or wood. Barts can sound woolly, unfortunately alternative pickups will cost to try out unless a luthier has a spare set lying around that will fit. If the wood is the problem, fitting a new set of pickups isn't going to make a lot of difference. You're not going to be able to realistically change the neck woods and new wings will be expensive and relatively ineffective. A new fingerboard from maple or ebony might introduce more 'snap' though, along with stainless steel frets, again costly.

I think you need to be really clear on what the cause is before you spend money though.

[green]

i like high end sizzle in my tone, and for that, i found out that EMG single coils are very good.

there just is one thing, that not everybody likes:
the pickups are very close to the strings.
it's a matter of weather you like the feel/touch of it or not.

plus, there must be enough room for the wooden covers.

does anybody know about the EMG-Z series ? they are passive, right ?
do they really sound like EMGs ?

[JTUK]

Agree, I'd work on the pickups...on the bassis of the bass works acoustically...??

Personally, I love Barts but it may depend more on the pre. Also Kent/Arron Armstrong can pretty much make you anything you want..it is probably more about the housing for you bass..
They look like Bart soaps to me..but guessing from here..

[Rich]

I agree with what's being said about the Barts. The Sei I had for a while was Barted, and they were pretty crap to be honest: like yours, the bass sounded wonderfully lively when played acoustically, and the piezo bridge sound suggested that the bass should have sounded stunning, but when the Barts were dialled in it just went [i]bleh[/i]. If I'd kept the Sei, the Barts would have quickly gone. So yes, I reckon it's yer pups.
Might it be possible to test the theory out by temporarily fitting something else -- anything really, even if it doesn't fill the cavity properly -- and seeing what happens to the sound? If it changes dramatically, you'll know. Martin P's definitely the guy to go to.

[chris_b]

Can you get in touch with the guy who built this bass? If not, you've got Bernie Goodfellow in Brighton, Charlie Chandler at Hampton Wick, Chandlers at Kew and the Bass Gallery in Camden. I'd be surprised if those guys can't fix this problem.

[27 frets]

If the pickups are regular humbuckers, it could be a question of how the two coils of each pickup are wired to the preamp.
Wiring the two coils of each pickup in parallel rather than in series (or vice versa) may produce a different tone.
It may even be worth trying a coil tap, so you're just using a single coil, to get a brighter tone (though the hum may increase).
Also, do check that there aren't any capacitors wired to the controls, acting like a passive tone control, and rolling off the top end. I had a capacitor fitted to a bass of mine by a luthier during a set-up 'to cut down on noise' - but unsurprisingly it cut the top end too!
I have another bass with a very 'woody' tone, due to a heavy mahogony body, and found that using the Aguilar 3-band EQ and scooping out the mid frequency (with the lower of the two mid frequencies selcted) cleaned it up a lot. A 2 band EQ doesn't give that possiblility though

[green]

in my opinion, a bass should shound just right, with the preamp set flat.
i think, the preamp has to be used to get an extreme sound, or to accommodate the sound to the given acoustics of the room or stuff like that.
(but like i said, it's just me)

i have a sterling, which has just one MM humbucker, which can be switched to parallel / serial / single coil.
now let me tell you:
it's wrong that serial wiring has less high end.

parallel wiring is sort of mid scooped.
serial wiring has lots of mids, but still has the same amount of high end to my ears. they just don't pop out that much like on a scooped setting, but they are still there.
single coil seems to sound a bit thin, compared to serial, and has less mids, so it's a bit more even. but still it doesn't have more or less high end.

but i had basses, where the wiring had more effect.

what woods is your bass made of ?

[dougal]

[quote name='green' post='783798' date='Mar 23 2010, 06:39 PM']in my opinion, a bass should shound just right, with the preamp set flat.

what woods is your bass made of ?[/quote]

Point 1: couldn't agree more.

Point 2: Swamp ash wings on a 5 piece maple wenge & zebrawood neck. I read that the fingerboard makes the most difference: this one is purple heart which according to warmouth:

[quote]Purpleheart (Peltogyne pubesens):

The trademark purple-like color is striking and it is gaining in popularity. A very hard, dense wood for excellent sustain and similar to Bubinga in its thick well defined bottom. Looks great combined with bodies sporting purple finishes![/quote]

chris_b: the guy who built it is in the USA: I lived there for a while. Getting it back to him could be awkward. I can do the gallery easily enough.

Here is the promised sound file:
[url="https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B9bWLouJSKRtYWFkZWVhYjUtMDQ1OC00NTAwLTlkZDktNGI2OGIzYTBhNjUx&hl=en"]https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B9bWLouJSK...hNjUx&hl=en[/url]

It's eq-flat & both pickups.

[green]

to me, it sounds like you have very old roundwound strings on your bass...

do you have an unusual high string height ?

if you have other basses, that have pickups that would fit in the routings of your custom bass, just swap the pickups and see if it's better.
if you don't have another bass, maybe you can find one... ?

[JTUK]

Well, I am a believer in compatible woods which is why people use tried and trusted combinations...but these would only really be apparent acoustically. Most of the work thereafter is done by the pre-amps... but a good luthier should adhere to the working combinations, I think, ands not just throw them all together..
If you get a good sound from the woods, then amplifying them becomes easier..

anyway... that is done now, so the point is mute one way or another.

Talking of mute...the sound is too and the only way to rescue that is different electrics.

I'd talk to a luthier who really knows his stuff in this regard and try and a few pup/pre permations if poss...
And Martin Petersen is deffo that man...
Also Arron Armstrong or Wizard for the pups... they should be able to dial in what you need...

The only thing I can think off..and again MP will have an opinion...is whether the pup facings are hindering the sound.

[fretmeister]

The guys at Bareknuckle will custom make you a pickup in any size you want.

Worth giving them a call.