Guitarist tunes between numbers - what to do?

[OldGit]

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='781850' date='Mar 21 2010, 05:49 PM']Think about structuring things for the singer to say between songs & work bass / drum intros into the set. All redundant if he tunes up at full volume though[/quote]


+1


It's a bit naive to assume because they can sing the singer can naturally take to being a front person.
Just cos they have the mic and are the centre of attention doesn't mean they do the rest of it naturally.

It takes working at and practicing like anything else. The difference is that a good front person performance can make a huge difference to how professional the band looks and how well it goes down.

It's a band thing, the band will benefit hugely from it so work together to come up with things to say and do.

If the front person has 20 quips prepared to say when someone needs to tune up in an emergency then they will be better at it.

Brainstorm ideas, pinch things from bands you've seen with great front people, live albums and DVDs.

"are there any girrrrrls in the audience with a little Irish in them" etc. Phil Lynot, Thin Lizzie: Live and Dangerous

Also there are lots of ideas on this here Internet. Google "how to be a great frontman" (or woman) and collate a few ideas.
Then try them out in rehearsal. It's the front man equivalent of working out a riff or vocal harmony or bass 'n' drums lock in, except a whole lot more people will notice if you (as a band) get it right (or wrong)

[E sharp]

[quote name='The Burpster' post='781565' date='Mar 21 2010, 12:13 PM']No excuse for it in my eyes with all the tech thats available - Makes then look very amatuerish too!

[/quote]
I agree .

I use a graphite necked Stingray , and it only is out of tune sometimes now , because it's kept in a gigbag . When it was in a hard case , it was never out - ever .

The guys in our band do this , and it's a pisstake , if you ask me .
They bunch all the De-tune numbers together (their ones mind) to limit it , but they still do it .

But...how is it that I can de-tune my E string on a few songs (either to D or C) without a tuner , (and quietly knealt down by my speaker to boot) , infinately quicker than that pair with their fancy floor tuners . And I'm done before they've swallowed the mouthful of lager that's been swigged between the last smash and the start of the next song .

It can't be the kit , I think it's just guitarists - plain and simple .

[skankdelvar]

No one seems to have mentioned the guitarists who go out of tune and don't even notice. There's one of my acquaintance who won't keep his tuner in his line. Spoils his 'tone', y'know.

So if he goes out of tune (and I tell him) it's a case of "unplug the lead from the amp, stick it in the tuner, switch the tuner on, tune the guitar, unplug the lead, plug it back into the amp".

On his knees, in the dark. Imagine all that going on between every song, FFS? And he-will-not-be-told!

Edited March 21, 2010 by skankdelvar

[Clarky]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='782096' date='Mar 21 2010, 08:53 PM']No one seems to have mentioned the guitarists who go out of tune and don't even notice. There's one of my acquaintance who won't keep his tuner in his line. Spoils his 'tone', y'know.

So if he goes out of tune (and I tell him) it's a case of "unplug the lead from the amp, stick it in the tuner, switch the tuner on, tune the guitar, unplug the lead, plug it back into the amp".

On his knees, in the dark. Imagine all that going on between every song, FFS? And he-will-not-be-told![/quote]
You had better have some bloody amusing stories for the audience at that point, or perhaps some fire-eating Brazilian strippers

[deathpanda]

Get better gear. I have an LP copy with grover tuners, never goes out of tune unless I do it myself. Sometimes the g string goes slightly out after hours of playing, but no ones gonna notice a quick adjustment like that.

[MB1]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='781763' date='Mar 21 2010, 04:32 PM']I used to just stand there smugly with my graphite neck which rarely if ever goes out of tune! [/quote]

MB1.
Guilty of this too Rich,... i used to glance at my watch too!

[obbm]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='781763' date='Mar 21 2010, 04:32 PM']I used to just stand there smugly with my graphite neck which rarely if ever goes out of tune! [/quote]

+1

[51m0n]

I was once briefly in an Indie band (forgive me).

The two guitarists at every rehearsal would dick about for at least a couple of minutes with tiny adjustments to amp settings that were only just audible between every song.

I thought that this slightly OCD behaviour was odd but nothing more. I never thought they intended to do this on the gig, it would be ridiculous, some songs they spent 5 minutes between on occasion.

On the first gig you can imagine my horror when after the first track they proceeded to go into their peculiar arse in the air (pointed at the punters) ritual of 'getting their sound, man'. During that first song I rolled a cigarette, and smoked it in entirety, before they got to the point where they were happy. The venue was absolutely silent as the punters stood there slack jawed at this turn of events.

After the next track I rolled three more fags.

Smoked one on the third gap, then sang a quiet 'why are we waiting' for about three choruses. At this pooint we were alone with the bar staff, the punters having come to their senses.

At the end of the night we went our seperate ways.

Fortunately I didnt have to tell them I was leaving the band, they phoned to sack me the next day for not 'having the right attitude to make it'

Best local band I ever saw had no dead air on their gigs, just constant pure energy. And that is the best way to do it by far. Nearly killed the drummer though!

Buy the guitarist a tuner! Teach him how to use it.

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='782096' date='Mar 21 2010, 08:53 PM']No one seems to have mentioned the guitarists who go out of tune and don't even notice. There's one of my acquaintance who won't keep his tuner in his line. Spoils his 'tone', y'know.[/quote]

Funny thing, I kept thinking that the whole time I was typing my original post but neglected to comment - I just had to double check my original post and it isn't mentioned! In my early days I had a simple Pretenders style rundown that I did on one song and when I watched the video playback none of the band (or me!) had noticed just how out of tune I was - very embarrasing! I don't think I could hear myself onstage so well. Since then I check my tuning onstage regularly but muted. Now I'm back on bass I don't tend to have tuning problems.

[deathpanda]

[quote name='51m0n' post='782244' date='Mar 21 2010, 11:12 PM']Fortunately I didnt have to tell them I was leaving the band, they phoned to sack me the next day for not 'having the right attitude to make it' [/quote]

That just sounds like a textbook case of hollow shells of human waste.

[LukeFRC]

This whole thing of guitarists being ego-centric members of the band, being protective and with something to prove. do you think it is down to insecurity that to be perfectly in tune and have each sound perfect?

[OldGit]

[quote name='Doddy' post='781677' date='Mar 21 2010, 02:49 PM']I don't like the excessive tuning that seems to happen after every song-especially when it's
accompanied by silence. One band I regularly work with,the singer/guitarist tunes after every couple
of songs and doesn't speak to the crowd much,if at all-but it's his band,so I can't say anything.
Whereas another band I work with,who I was with last night,never stops apart from the semi-
rehearsed announcements,which there are maybe one or two of per set.
You can guess which one keeps the dance floor full.

It's not really a case of playing a 'holding pattern' or anything like that,because even then it is usually
seen as a chance to give the guitarist a chance to tune.The problem is that a lot of bands play one
song,stop,play another,stop etc. If the band has it's act together and is slick,there is generally no
time to fanny about retuning that +/- 1 cent,because as soon as one song finishes,the next one
starts.
One rule-If you stay silent for longer than a couple of seconds,people will sit down.[/quote]


Sure, That's what I mean.
I'm big fan of the 3x20 minute continuous demi-sets (or whatever the latin is for a third of a set ) with 2 planned talkie spots between. The demis sets have song transitions designed to keep the dance floor heaving but to allow for patch switching and tuning when necessary. The holding patterns are part of it.
Way too many bands start songs "just like the do on the record" just because that's how they did it on the record and no matter what that does to the energy levels and dance floor fullness...

[deathpanda]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='782264' date='Mar 21 2010, 11:41 PM']This whole thing of guitarists being ego-centric members of the band, being protective and with something to prove. do you think it is down to insecurity that to be perfectly in tune and have each sound perfect?[/quote]

Maybe, but I'm still lost as to why all these so called guitarists are constantly going out of tune. If a guitarist is insecure about his guitar being perfectly in tune, shouldn't that give him the incentive to splash out on having his guitar setup perfectly and maybe have better tuners installed? Baffles me, my friend has a relatively cheap MIA strat with a professional setup and it just refuses to go out of tune.

[OldGit]

[quote name='JTUK' post='781654' date='Mar 21 2010, 01:53 PM']yes..we will have to do something... it is just that in the rush to get everything out and gigging, this is an oversight..or something we have not envisaged.[/quote]

Sure. When you are up to your bum in alligators ....


So now, having done a few gigs consolidate and review and refine.
Spend one rehearsal in 4 (minimum) actually rehearsing the performance rather than learning the tunes or practicing your sounds and amp settings.

I'm a strong believer in planning different types of time in the rehearsal room eg:
- learning or writing tunes and arrangements (can happen acoustically in a house or whatever)
- section rehearsals eg horns, rhythm section, vocals, where everyone else helps the section rehearse without moaning or insisting on rehearsing their guitar lines at the same time as the vox or pacingteh room shouting "can't we just rawwwwk now???"
- loud run throughs of tunes
- effects and settings rehearsals where people get time to work out their settings, try a couple and talk to each other to avoid clashes
- performance rehearsals where you go through the whole set non stop including the talkie bits, in real time and dealing with tuning, hitches etc

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='deathpanda' post='782275' date='Mar 21 2010, 11:53 PM']Maybe, but I'm still lost as to why all these so called guitarists are constantly going out of tune. If a guitarist is insecure about his guitar being perfectly in tune, shouldn't that give him the incentive to splash out on having his guitar setup perfectly and maybe have better tuners installed? Baffles me, my friend has a relatively cheap MIA strat with a professional setup and it just refuses to go out of tune.[/quote]

To carry on the sterotypes, bass players are a more social and less competitive bunch. Places like basschat prove this, and we swap ideas and experiences. Maybe guitarists dinnae do this? multiply that over a few generations!!!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='OldGit' post='782280' date='Mar 22 2010, 12:00 AM']Sure. When you are up to your bum in alligators ....


So now, having done a few gigs consolidate and review and refine.
Spend one rehearsal in 4 (minimum) actually rehearsing the performance rather than learning the tunes or practicing your sounds and amp settings.

I'm a strong believer in planning different types of time in the rehearsal room eg:
- learning or writing tunes and arrangements (can happen acoustically in a house or whatever)
- section rehearsals eg horns, rhythm section, vocals, where everyone else helps the section rehearse without moaning or insisting on rehearsing their guitar lines at the same time as the vox or pacingteh room shouting "can't we just rawwwwk now???"
- loud run throughs of tunes
- effects and settings rehearsals where people get time to work out their settings, try a couple and talk to each other to avoid clashes
- performance rehearsals where you go through the whole set non stop including the talkie bits, in real time and dealing with tuning, hitches etc[/quote]

good ideas. The band i used to be in we used to run through the whole set in a practice before the gig. We would have a 20-40 min slot (not massive but we were a paid originals band so thats what we were offered) And we would fill that time with music as out jokes were awful.
Practice would be the laptop/drum machine set up, and we would finish one song and go onto the next in the time it took the laptop to start playing a file already open in another window. Through the whole set. twice. Then a fag break for everyone but me and the synth player and back to run though it twice more.
We once were involved in this music video project thing, playing one track. You do not know how many times you can play one 3.20s song in a 2 hour practice. We hated that tune by the end, untill we played it live next and it sounded amazing!

[hagguy]

at least the guitarist cares if he is actually in tune
i jammed with a band that the guitarist/ singer refused to
use the tuner i brought saying that he tuned the guitar before
he came to practice, by ear i might add, i said fair enough, we
then kicked into a tune and i stopped after 2 bars handed him the tuner
which instantly was returned with a smarmey "its your bass and his les paul"
what a tit!!

[jimmyb625]

[quote name='obbm' post='781958' date='Mar 21 2010, 07:12 PM']Or guilt complex. Something in a song doesn't quite sound right because someone plays a wrong note or a wrong chord. Immediate reaction is "I'd better check that I'm in tune".[/quote]

Well it's obviously a tuning problem, because the guitar player never plays anything wrong!!!

(ok, I'm mainly a (pretty crap) guitarist, but I'm attempting to become a pretty crap bass player as well)

[JTUK]

[quote name='OldGit' post='782280' date='Mar 22 2010, 12:00 AM']Sure. When you are up to your bum in alligators ....

...............[/quote]


you are joking... it is hard enough to get to a rehearsal as it is. We just don't get the time collectively
Anyway, I don't think things need to that contrived.... it shouldn't be a problem and we have had nothing but positive reviews.
It is just an issue that the band members notice. I probably wish it wasn't so but with all the things that we could have as issues
as band , this doesn't rate very highly.

We'll talk about it but if we relax into the gig a bit more, then this will just fade away.
We aren't going to have a bad gig just because of this aspect.. but in an ideal world....??

[Musicman69]

Im telling you folks, its 99% OCD!
Guitars are well made these days and generally stay in tune.

[OldGit]

[quote name='JTUK' post='782303' date='Mar 22 2010, 12:46 AM']you are joking... it is hard enough to get to a rehearsal as it is. We just don't get the time collectively
Anyway, I don't think things need to that contrived.... it shouldn't be a problem and we have had nothing but positive reviews.
It is just an issue that the band members notice. I probably wish it wasn't so but with all the things that we could have as issues
as band , this doesn't rate very highly.

We'll talk about it but if we relax into the gig a bit more, then this will just fade away.
We aren't going to have a bad gig just because of this aspect.. but in an ideal world....??[/quote]


Yeah, it's a part of my "how to be a really good live band really fast" strategy.
Rather than learn how to do all the non-playng bits of a stage show infront of an audience, do as much as possible in private beforehand.

However I think a lot of bands expect people to be able to do things like work out amp setings, vocal harmonies, footpedal and patch settings etc on the fly and fast in a general rehearsal where the priority is something else.

This can breed resentment from those standing about doing nothing whilst people twiddle and test etc. I've heard "why can't he work out his pedal patches at home?". Well you can get close but the final changes you need the whole band, volume and show situation to check things and resolve clashes.

If the rehearsal (or a section of it) is designated for that then the on stage results should be a lot better.

[JTUK]

I do agree that you can get your parts down at home and use the rehearsal to iron out these things..patches at volumes might need more tweaking than at home. We have a good bunch of lads who know what they are doing and can get the parts down quickly, the rehearsal is enough to get it working so the music comes together really quickly..one rehearsal for the more basic structured songs without masses of BV's and then we play it in on the gig.
The bands lacks time together which is where we fall down...to our mind..the audience doesn't seem to notice, thankfully.

In an ideal world we would have more time but we just don't....plus a screwed intro is something we can laugh at. We will stop the song and start again... That takes any tension out of things. We can play well enough to not be maimed by things like that...

We might want to be slick but also don't want to dissapear up our backsides...

I can't knock our gigs upto now....but these little things are the things that get left to last... We are talking about pubs/clubs here, though.

[Low End Bee]

[quote name='SteveK' post='781610' date='Mar 21 2010, 12:57 PM']Probably has less to do with tuning, and more to do with nerves.[/quote]
+1

If it's a tiny bit out on the G for a song who's going to give a monkeys really.

I'm pretty sure my guitarist does this as a way to calm himself for the next song (I can see him mouthing the opening lines to the next song sometimes while he's adjusting a tuner by 1/128th of a turn) so I just have to give the audience the benefit of my finely honed stage banter while he's tuning.
It would be nice to bang one out straight after another sometimes but as he has the singing duties as well I don't mind taking a bit of the front man burden off him too much.

[OldGit]

[quote name='JTUK' post='782423' date='Mar 22 2010, 10:42 AM']I do agree that you can get your parts down at home and use the rehearsal to iron out these things..patches at volumes might need more tweaking than at home. We have a good bunch of lads who know what they are doing and can get the parts down quickly, the rehearsal is enough to get it working so the music comes together really quickly..one rehearsal for the more basic structured songs without masses of BV's and then we play it in on the gig.
The bands lacks time together which is where we fall down...to our mind..the audience doesn't seem to notice, thankfully.

In an ideal world we would have more time but we just don't....plus a screwed intro is something we can laugh at. We will stop the song and start again... That takes any tension out of things. We can play well enough to not be maimed by things like that...

We might want to be slick but also don't want to dissapear up our backsides...

I can't knock our gigs upto now....but these little things are the things that get left to last... We are talking about pubs/clubs here, though.[/quote]

Sounds like you have the right attitude for what you are doing - good enough plus tweaks as you go along.
That works well enough.

My suggestions are general, really.
I've seen too many bads fall down on these bits when their playing is pretty good overall.
Too many people think the playing is the only important bit.

[retroman]

I agree with a lot of the comments made, and I really don't get why a guitar should go out of tune that much.........

I've had 2 guitars in the past, an Epiphone SG, and a Gordon Smith Les Paul. Neither went out of tune. They would only shift slightly if you strummed the hell out of them for at least 2 hours.......

Old saying time "Only a poor workman blames his tools"

At the end of the day, how many half cut punters are actually going to notice if the guitar is a fraction of a semi tone out?