Guitarist tunes between numbers - what to do?

[JTUK]

[quote name='OldGit' post='781599' date='Mar 21 2010, 12:48 PM']Try that "holding patten" thing. It takes away the big hole where the front person thinks they have to speak..... If tehre's a beat going there's less of an obvious pause.

Rehearse the front person's talkie bits too, and where they come in teh set. Just as valid and important as rehearsing the guitar solos IMHO and will have a much bigger impact on the sucess of the group as a whole.[/quote]


yes..we will have to do something... it is just that in the rush to get everything out and gigging, this is an oversight..or something we have not envisaged.

[Musicman69]

I saw Stevie Ray Vaughan in London years back, he just kept it tuned as he played.. made 3 or 4 tiny adjustments during a 2 1/2 hr set. Rory Gallagher used to do the same. Class!

[obbm]

Worse that tuning between numbers is widdling licks from the next song he's going to play or widdling their favourite test piece. The lead guitarist in a band I was in some years ago kept playing the same bit every time. Drove me mental.

[Doddy]

I don't like the excessive tuning that seems to happen after every song-especially when it's
accompanied by silence. One band I regularly work with,the singer/guitarist tunes after every couple
of songs and doesn't speak to the crowd much,if at all-but it's his band,so I can't say anything.
Whereas another band I work with,who I was with last night,never stops apart from the semi-
rehearsed announcements,which there are maybe one or two of per set.
You can guess which one keeps the dance floor full.

It's not really a case of playing a 'holding pattern' or anything like that,because even then it is usually
seen as a chance to give the guitarist a chance to tune.The problem is that a lot of bands play one
song,stop,play another,stop etc. If the band has it's act together and is slick,there is generally no
time to fanny about retuning that +/- 1 cent,because as soon as one song finishes,the next one
starts.
One rule-If you stay silent for longer than a couple of seconds,people will sit down.

[Ancient Mariner]

OK, guitarist here.

There's a lot that can be done to fix regular tuning issues, and from discussions on other forums, there's a common manufacturer fault too.

Aside from environmental changes (that the player can't fix) the key areas are the nut, strings and (if fitted) trem system, plus basic setup.

The most common thing that makes guitars go out of tune is a badly cut nut. Gibson have never learned that this is an issue: all their guitars come with a nut that's barely wide enough for 9s and WILL stick with 10s if not modified. They're not the only ones (my Godin xtSA was atrocious until I took some files to it). Fender and many of the budget makers don't seem to have much of an issue cutting the slots wide enough for 10s and even 11s often. In 9+ cases out of 10, a guitar that shifts in tuning during use will have narrow nut slots.

Strings can also cause problems: if they're new (replaced before the gig) and not stretched in or wound around the tuning posts sufficiently (3 wraps E, B and G, 2 wraps D, A and E) then they can move during the gig. Strings should be stretched in by tuning to pitch, then holding the string around the 12th fret and pulling away from the fingerboard until it is felt to run out of elasticity, then lowered back. Repeat 3-4 times, retune, repeat again until tuning becomes reasonably stable. Some strings need more stretching than others (DR need less than D'Addario). It's worth noting that even the cheapest machine heads, such as those found on £25 chinese guitars do not slip, and replacing them with locking tuners is never going to stabilise tuning.

Finally, trems. Locking trems are a hassle to set up properly but once they're good, tuning should be stable. However: If the trem is a 2 point type and won't return to pitch accurately then it's likely the knife edges are worn. Chap stick can be used as a lubricant and will help, but either grinding (by a tech) or replacement is the only answer. Vintage trems are unstable, and the fender versions are not good due to the pivot point being in the wrong place! But if you can tolerate a little imprecision they can be made acceptable, and replacement items from Wilkinson (not just the expensive ones) work much better. The trick is to set the trem flush with the body (it can be made floating later) and screw in the 6 screws until they touch the plate. Back the outer 2 half a turn and the middle 4 one and a half turns. A little light oil where the screws and term base plate meet is not a bad thing.


All this assumes an otherwise correctly set up guitar. Many techs apparently have no idea what is required for a set up, other than action at the 12th fret, and can really sod up an otherwise decent instrument. For a guitar to play in tune all over the fretboard it's really important that the nut is cut deep enough as well as intonation being set (I have only ever owned new 1 guitar - a JJ - that came to me intonated correctly and giggable from the box). Just occasionally a guitar will go out of tune at the start of a gig because of temperature changes (always get the guitar on a stand as soon as you arrive, to acclimate) or being bashed around a bit in transit. However after the first couple of retunes it should settle down and be well behaved for the rest of the gig.

If any of your guitarists want to talk to me about how to fix tuning issues then I'm very happy to help them. I'm not a professional tech, but I've been setting up my guitars for more than 30 years, ever since I owned a guitar with a movable bridge.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Ancient Mariner

[faceman]

Seeing this thread reminded me of my last gig and I went mental at our guitarist. He asked if he could use my tuner and I said sure. He apparently pressed the 'flat' button and thought by pressing it again it would cancel it out. However us season vets would know this adds another semi-tone to make a tone and he then tuned his guitar up.

As we started the our opener, his top E string snapped (because it was pushed up an F) and I just got very angry because he didn't have a spare string! Then he proceeded to do the whole set with a tuning of F, B, E, A, C which sounded horrendous - he apologised profusely at the end of the gig. Nearly ruined the gig but I was told the bass and keys kept it going

I resolve to ensure they he has a spare set of strings and a tuner he knows how to use. Grr.....

[Ancient Mariner]

That really made me laugh out loud.

[lonestar]

Sack him.

[Doddy]

No excuse for that. Surely he could hear that he was out of tune?
Even without re-tuning,he should have been able to hear that he was sharp
and at least be able to transposed his parts accordingly.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='781733' date='Mar 21 2010, 04:08 PM']No excuse for that. Surely he could hear that he was out of tune?
Even without re-tuning,he should have been able to hear that he was sharp
and at least be able to transposed his parts accordingly.[/quote]
Not only that, NO SPARE STRINGS !!?? WTF?

[casapete]

[quote name='Musicman69' post='781655' date='Mar 21 2010, 01:55 PM']I saw Stevie Ray Vaughan in London years back, he just kept it tuned as he played.. made 3 or 4 tiny adjustments during a 2 1/2 hr set. Rory Gallagher used to do the same. Class![/quote]

Exactly...... both used heavier strings which must have helped a lot.

A band I was in during the 70s had a guitarist who used 008 gauge strings, and then wondered why chords always sounded out of tune.
Most well known players don't use anything too light for this reason, and also heavier strings = more tone. Simple!

Edited March 21, 2010 by casapete

[Sibob]

The other way around it is to have the bass player or drummer start a song. Obviously only really works on some songs (Valerie, Bille Jean, Supersitition etc), but its one thing to remember!, then the guitarist can join in his part when ready. Still needs to sort out the time it takes to tune. I've heard from many people that Gibson tuners are rubbish, although I have no direct experience obviously

Si

[faceman]

Sack him? Well he's our singer too so it'd pretty much destroy the band and we'd be starting again! Plus, he's my best mate so don't think I could. However, some of us (me included) are graduating this summer so something will happen anyway.

He spent most of the set attempting to retune but I couldn't hear from my side of the stage. I agree there is no excuse for spare strings.

[BigRedX]

One of our guitarists doesn't have even have a spare guitar...

In the days when I was playing mainly guitar I wouldn't even contemplate going on stage with out a backup guitar, and have it positioned on stage where I could grab it and change over mid-song if necessary (in it's case back in the changing room as I've seen with some bands just doesn't cut it).

These days I bring a spare bass plus a spare set of string for each one and a pair of string cutters, duplicates of every lead that I'll need and two DI boxes - one to use with the amp if we're going to feed to bass into the PA and a backup to allow me to run the bass directly into the PA should I have an amp problem.

[OutToPlayJazz]

I used to just stand there smugly with my graphite neck which rarely if ever goes out of tune!

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='781745' date='Mar 21 2010, 04:17 PM']Not only that, NO SPARE STRINGS !!?? WTF?[/quote]

Totally.
However,if you don't have spare strings on you,or you don't have enough time
to change them for whatever reason,you should know the instrument well enough
that you can shift your parts to another position on the 'board.

[Rosh]

This is bugging me as we have synth which need patches loading and this just means we organise the set so he can load when he's not playing another part -- quite easy to fix!

We also have a glockenspiel in our set which alternates between the keys player and the guitarist but they were slow switching between songs so we had organise where we physically stood onstage -- problem solved.

Our vocalist now talks/plugs between songs -- problem solved

The one we can't solve is our guitarist being a dumb-ass and not even having a tuner, spare lead, extension cable, spare guitar etc. -- This leaves an uncomfortable pause between songs (we have one that's drop D) as he can't even mute, he has to tune by ear -- loudly. /rantover

[Marvin]

[quote name='Doddy' post='781768' date='Mar 21 2010, 04:35 PM']Totally.
However,if you don't have spare strings on you,or you don't have enough time
to change them for whatever reason,
[i][b]you should know the instrument well enough that you can shift your parts to another position on the 'board.[/b][/i][/quote]

That would be asking a lot from some people . Good job it wouldn't apply to drummers.
Surely carrying spare strings at least is like carrying the spare wheel for your car. It's something you always do.
(Of course there will always be times when you've just been caught out).

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Sibob' post='781639' date='Mar 21 2010, 01:31 PM']Depends what strings he's using and how hard he hits them I guess!?
What would you prefer?, playing a song with an out of tune guitarist?.....To be honest, the singer should be able to fill in with banter IMO!

Si[/quote]

That would be my thinking. I used to be a guitarist, and instruments do sometimes go out of tune (and no, it wasn't comfort tuning and neither was it a problem with the instruments - although both are by no means uncommon). I guess I was lucky, but the frontmen I worked with at the time were natural extroverts, very good at audience banter and well able to cover a brief tuning moment. In case someone hasn't said it already, being in a band is (amongst other things) an exercise in co-operation for the greater good. I've always considered it part of the frontman's job to interact with the crowd. If (s)he can't or won't do that then there may be a problem right there.

[Ancient Mariner]

Tuning stability and string weight have nothing to do with each other, and some very well known guitarists use 8 gauge strings. Light gauge strings only cause tuning issues for heavy handed guitarists playing guitars with jumbo frets. Heavier strings are only useful if you need more 'fight' from the instrument and a darker (not even fatter - just darker) tone. A part of the SRV sound is him actually fighting against the strings, which worked for him but would be inappropriate for most players.

As for transposing to another part of the board, it won't sound the same (unless you've got synth-levels of distortion) and may not even be practically possible for ordinary mortals to play. A lot of guitar tone is dependent upon where on the neck it's played and sometimes use combinations of open and fretted strings, which is completely non-transposable.

I'd agree completely that everyone should have spare strings handy, and preferably a spare guitar too 'just in case'.

You may or may not find this amusing: I have the DVD Santana plays blues at Montreaux 2004 featuring Gatemouth Brown and Bobby Parker. Brown plays fingerstyle using combinations of fretted and open strings, and actually plays about 2 verses of a song in the wrong key before the bass player leans over and tells him what they're playing in. A little later Bobby Parker comes on and his guitar is disastrously out of tune on the high E string, and doesn't settle down until the end of the second song. Credit where it's due, he does retune mid-song and he appears to have spare strings actually taped to the guitar's body.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Ancient Mariner

[Cat Burrito]

I moved onto guitar for a few years & was majorly into country playing so lots of 2 fret bends etc. I'd usually have to tune up a couple of times but as long as you kill the volume it's not a problem. Playing badly out of tune is very unprofessional but you can be more professional with your tunings.

Think about structuring things for the singer to say between songs & work bass / drum intros into the set. All redundant if he tunes up at full volume though

[OldGit]

[quote name='Ancient Mariner' post='781685' date='Mar 21 2010, 03:02 PM']OK, guitarist here.

There's a lot that can be done to fix regular tuning issues, and from discussions on other forums, there's a common manufacturer fault too.

Aside from environmental changes (that the player can't fix) the key areas are the nut, strings and (if fitted) trem system, plus basic setup.

//Snipppp//


If any of your guitarists want to talk to me about how to fix tuning issues then I'm very happy to help them. I'm not a professional tech, but I've been setting up my guitars for more than 30 years, ever since I owned a guitar with a movable bridge.[/quote]

Another good reason for playing bass..

+1 on fixing nuts though. I've heard that a lot of times.

I think lot of people tune up through nerves when they have no need to.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Sibob' post='781753' date='Mar 21 2010, 04:24 PM']The other way around it is to have the bass player or drummer start a song. Obviously only really works on some songs (Valerie, Bille Jean, Supersitition etc), but its one thing to remember!, then the guitarist can join in his part when ready. Still needs to sort out the time it takes to tune. I've heard from many people that Gibson tuners are rubbish, although I have no direct experience obviously

Si[/quote]


Yeah That's my "holding pattern" idea.
Start it with Bass and drums, keys, or the guitarist that's in tune or just drums.
Start and have a holding pattern 'til a cue and then start the song properly.
It's not hard.

If a particular tune is hard on guitar string tuning make sure the next one allows for the guitarist to tune up whilst something else starts the song off.

[obbm]

[quote name='OldGit' post='781947' date='Mar 21 2010, 07:06 PM']I think lot of people tune up through nerves when they have no need to.[/quote]

Or guilt complex. Something in a song doesn't quite sound right because someone plays a wrong note or a wrong chord. Immediate reaction is "I'd better check that I'm in tune".

[essexbasscat]

Have played in bands that develop contingency plans for the times that things go wrong i.e strings break, need tuning or someone falls over etc


There's heaps of songs out there for all kinds of formulae from duet to however many you like on stage.

Just because one person dives out, it doesn't mean the show don't go on !!!!

T

what about the can -can for when a fight breaks out ? (usually in the audience, unless you're doing a Who tribute)

Edited March 21, 2010 by essexbasscat