More than 4?

[ARGH]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='86786' date='Nov 11 2007, 10:05 AM']Calm down Ross - I know you are excited about your 9 string.

But I think the clips posted so far indicate the real problem with ERBs - all the music made on them that gets posted on You Tube is rubbish. Plus the fact that you are gonna listen to it on headphones or crappy PC speakers and its gonna sound even more rubbish. That Death Metal sounded like normal metal just two octaves lower - and did they have 2 bass players? Whatever! On my 'phones it sounded like sludge.[/quote]


No John the problem is dumbf***s that have never had to gig to feed themselves,pay bills,,and keep a roof over their,and their familys,heads living in their small circles (re:local pub circuit) and thinking what happens in their local open mic is what goes....... full stop

[fusionbassist1]

I can see your point Ross and it's true that pc speakers and headphones don't do much justice to 4 string basses, let alone ERB's but I do think you need to calm down a bit.
Personaly on the death metal thing i don't find music that's designed to displease attractive at all so I won't bother giving an opinion on ERB's in that context as I'd be pretty biased i'm afraid.

[gypsymoth]

"dumb ''''''' that have never had to gig to feed themselves blah blah"

uh, what does that have to do with the number of strings, or what type of music played on said strings, or, well, anything musical? other than maybe dumb ''''' that are bitter about having to gig to feed themselves blah blah. or something.

sorry, I can't quite figure where that is coming from in this discussion about multi (is that more than one?) string basses.

[Matte_black]

I feel like I should put my 2 cents in this thread
If what a player does really moves me emotionally I think he can use 4 or 12 strings. If he has no groove and his soloing (IF he makes solos) is poor then even 4 strings are too much.
Sure, an 8-9+ strings bass is almost another instrument. But it's still a musical instrument, a tool for sharing and creating emotions and feelings. That's how I see it.


After that, I'm still waiting for my 8 strings set from Conklin

[Alun]

Listen with your ears, not your eyes.

Music sounds good = music is good, be it played on a harp or a pencil.

Cheers
Alun

( proud player of 4 and 6 string bassy things)

PS I know I've said it before but....have you ever seen a keyboard player in a pop band complain why some grand pianos have so many notes?

[tempo]

To the OP, why then 4? why not 3 or any other number of strings, what is the ultimate level of acceptability? Is a 5 string 20% less acceptable than a 4? ........
........ How many keys are there on a piano? ... What kind of a piano? an upright? a grand?... how many frets on your guitar/bass? is any more than 20 too many?... etc, etc. These pointless debates crop up all the time on forums like these, and always have the same cliche's and conclusions.
We are all (hopefully) musicians, and we all need an instrument to convey are inner feelings, via our chosen tool. So let's just make music to the best of our individual abilities, on our individually chosen instruments.

Pete.

[Bilbo]

'bassplayer magazine apaprently didn't believe jaco's portrait of tracy was a bass guitar when they first heard it'

I thought bass player magazine didn't exist when Jaco released Portrait of Tracy?

Anyway - I am now able to report the conclusions I have drawn from this debate.

These monstors are called Extended Range Basses or ERBs for short (that's a new one to me). Personally, I thought they called them pianos but there you are.

I have looked at the Youtube clips and see a lot of tractor noises and guitar like noodling but nothing that is even close to emotionally satisfying (extended range noodling!).

I have learned that most people on this fourm assume that, if you question the value of a concept, it is because you have a closed mind and it couldn't be because the idea in question may be a bit iffy.

The problem I have with these instruments is that the practical physiological problems created by these wide necks reduces the flexibility with which the player can phrase. Because of this, the music that is played ends up sounding more than a little stilted (to me). I have a nagging doubt that this 'movement' is about the instruments and the players (as people) and not about the music (like the double basses they used to make that were 11 feet tall and needed two people to play them - they are museum curiosities now). I guess I will have to sit back and watch and listen until some little genius is able to find a way to rise above these technical problems and come up with some beautiful music that doesn't sound like tractor noises and bad guitarists.

I am sure it will happen one day.

[theosd]

[quote name='Stubacca' post='86210' date='Nov 9 2007, 08:10 PM']I'm surprised that anyone questions the 5-string these days - I'd be lost without those low notes, especially the D and Eb - let's face it, the D string on a 4-string bass just isn't low enough sometimes. And whenever I put the low B in, my drummer can't help turning round and grinning.[/quote]

So you stand behind your drummer? extreme backstage bassist!

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='87799' date='Nov 13 2007, 11:45 AM']tractor noises and bad guitarists[/quote]

Have you ever actually seen anyone playing one properly, not on youtube? Sound quality of videos on youtube is far from perfect and it's also full of bad guitarists playing actual guitars, but you wouldn't dismiss their instrument on the basis that wonderful players are rare, would you?
I love my 7-string and have used it effectively in band situations as well as on my own without sounding like tractor noises or a bad guitarist - as for tapping, I do that a fair bit, but I also play finger-style and even slap a little bit
The whole thing about you being close-minded is that you A. don't seem to value the opinion of those of us who like the sound of ERBs B. are basing your own opinion on what you've seen a few bassists doing with their ERBs, despite the adamant suggestions in this thread that we don't just tap all the time...
Your 4-string basses are only an octave below even 6-string guitars... not very bassy, are they?

Edited November 13, 2007 by queenofthedepths

[Bilbo]

queenofthedepths - I recall saying I love Antony Jackson so I would guess that would mean I have heard (and seen in his case) ERB players and (in his case) enjoyed them. My opinions on ERB players is based on what I have heard - how can it be otherwise? What is your based on? What you have seen? As for valuing the opinions of others - I asked for them. Why would I not ask for them if they held no valule for me?

My point is not objective (it can't be) - I simply have not heard any of the VERB (very extended range bass) bassists doing anything beautiful, emotionally satisfying, nice, groovy, profound or generally yummy. If I hear any, I will jump up and down, go all gooey and probably comission a 9 string. Michael Manring made me realise that, whilst I in no way like everything he does, you CAN make good music using tapping techniques. Same for Michael Hedges and a few other guys on Youtube. I just want to hear something moving on a VERB.

If you hear anything you think will fit the bill, [i]please[/i] let me know.

PS - if you look REALLY closely at my picture, you will see a Status 6-string hanging up behind me. ooooooh!! Just don't tell anyone.

Edited November 13, 2007 by bilbo230763

[OldGit]

[quote name='fusionbassist1' post='86701' date='Nov 10 2007, 11:05 PM']In the self explanitory words of zappa "shut up 'n' play yer guitar".[/quote]

[set anorak on]
Actually "shut up and play yer guitar" was a heckle aimed [b]at[/b] Zappa when he was in mid political rant one evening..
[set anorak off]
but actually it makes sence in this context too ..

Play and let play.

Edited November 13, 2007 by OldGit

[OldGit]

[quote name='ARGH' post='86716' date='Nov 11 2007, 12:03 AM']That good enough for ya OG?[/quote]

[Alun]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='87940' date='Nov 13 2007, 04:34 PM']I just want to hear something moving on a VERB.

If you hear anything you think will fit the bill, [i]please[/i] let me know.[/quote]

My vote would be to go to [url="http://www.myspace.com/yvescarbonne"]http://www.myspace.com/yvescarbonne[/url] and listen to "Holy Spirit".

Cheers,
Alun

[Bilbo]

Thanks, Alun. This kind of stuff is ok/interesting but it still feels a little stilted to me. Moments are ok, but the ERB bits seem superfluous or superficial. Carbonne sounds like a very creative musician but I would like to hear him in another 15 years or so!

I followed a link of his page to Manring's MySpace page and listened to 'Selene' - its not perfect but it is music that transcends the instrument and has the capacity to move me. And all on a 4-string!!

Thanks for the link.

[ARGH]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='87940' date='Nov 13 2007, 04:34 PM']queenofthedepths - I recall saying I love Antony Jackson so I would guess that would mean I have heard (and seen in his case) ERB players and (in his case) enjoyed them. My opinions on ERB players is based on what I have heard - how can it be otherwise? What is your based on? What you have seen? As for valuing the opinions of others - I asked for them. Why would I not ask for them if they held no valule for me?

My point is not objective (it can't be) - I simply have not heard any of the VERB (very extended range bass) bassists doing anything beautiful, emotionally satisfying, nice, groovy, profound or generally yummy. If I hear any, I will jump up and down, go all gooey and probably comission a 9 string. Michael Manring made me realise that, whilst I in no way like everything he does, you CAN make good music using tapping techniques. Same for Michael Hedges and a few other guys on Youtube. I just want to hear something moving on a VERB.

If you hear anything you think will fit the bill, [i]please[/i] let me know.

PS - if you look REALLY closely at my picture, you will see a Status 6-string hanging up behind me. ooooooh!! Just don't tell anyone.[/quote]


Hi fella,welcome back....

Glad to see an intelligent comment upon the state of recorded ERB playing,seeing as the instrument is very very very much in its infancy,the amount of musical output is extremely limited....and then what is available is very much subjected to taste,and in codependence,recorded quality.

Forgive a patronizing edge ...and my possible inaccurracy upon your self and your knowledge,but my guess is you have little (Perhaps no) knowledge of the History of the ERB.....

IM a bit of a swine and tend to,even as its a fault like anyone,limit my vision/ideas of what ERBs are,but generally I think or see the ERB as a Bass or Bass-scaled instrument (That being over, above or around 34+" from bridge to nut, the plus being needed for Novax'd instruments whose scales can be as far as 38"..even 40" upon the lower strings) of around 7 strings or more that can be tapped,plucked,strummed...etc etc,in the same way as say a/the limited range instrument,the ERBs predessessor and relative,the 4 string Bass Guitar,as envisioned by Leo Fender.

Those are my boundarys,what I set as a vision,some say its anything beyond 4 strings...thats their criteria,but I have thouroughly explained mine. I hope this gives you a level of what I see as the instrument...what you have recently discovered (maybe??)...The Extended range Bass. We are not Piano players,though some of us strike the strings in a similer fashion to achieve 'effects',we just arnt,its a guitarlike instrument,based,as said upon,a previous,limited design,that was created to replace another instrument (and thankfully didnt) if only for convenience in recording and stage mobility (the DoubleBass...aka the Upright)

You know the work of Anthony Jackson,his creative ideas,and his first collaborative instruments by Carl Thompson. This is a similer creative drive I suppose to what drove me and others to ERB playing,commisions of creation,ownership etc.

Im afraid I Havent had the delight of the sheer depth of education or long studio experience of mr Jackson,and added that,we Have not the numbers of ERB players in studios making music right now,Im sorry that are numbers havent swelled enough,to be seen in an everyday fashion,it is a quite hard,but not impossible instrument to play....at last count with the assistant webmasterbloke of ERB.comforum Jonathan Payne, its near impossible on know exactly how many ERBs ,as I define them,or players of such an instrument,exist upon the planet right now....say of the 700+ persons attached to the forum,most (Jon reckons 50%) wont or dont own an instrument of 7+ strings,compare this to the 1000s that apply and are part of this forum..thats UK based alone,and the MANY MANY on TalkBass in the USA...we are a rare breed...very rare,In comparison to the numbers and years of 4/5/6 string Bass production.

SO this lists what we have available to show you,what we can do,and ...then...what you like,at a distinct disadvantage..at being limited. We are sorry,we hope,as I attempt to try here to speak for all UK and European...no WORLD ERBists that soon we will play something that is yummy gooey,and so lush you drop tools and join us,we ...I...all of us would love another,obviously, tastefull musician among our ranks,not that we want to take over Gods earth on a Violent quest of subharmonic destruction...but...well....you get the picture!

Going back to the numbers of 7+ string instruments on the planet,I cant give an exact figure,but we reckon (Jon and myself) that there are probably less then 250 in the UK and Ireland...and on a very conservative guess its probably less than 120..of that Me and Jon reckon 9ers number about between 8 and 20 in the UK and Eire (Its really difficult,given The Conklins cheap line of ERBs...7 string sidewinders and 9 string Dickens signiture models and what Odds Listerud Bass company in Norway have created and exported..plus the many many German/USA/Euro based indie luthiers..we dont have sales figures to the UK,and it feels a little impolite asking Bill Conklin and those companys what those figures are). Given our instruments youth,it is comaprable to the Fenders young growth,but we have to remember Leo just wanted to replace the 'Doghouse' as he called it.......and with that simple premise,the FenderBass became popular (along with Gibsons version...Rickys etc etc)..of 10+string players I reckon there number about 2 in the UK..One I believe is in London.

So,in a very real sense,its,as the saying goes...' its a small world' with those in the community very much,linked and isolated by where we live and by what we play and who with,add the oppertunitys available,you see this gives little scope.......but we pass on encouragment to all parties,and tips on everything from string manufacture to pickup and amplifier even speaker layout and design....every new ,little detail and tip that helps us,we discuss,and send to each other,late night,online,across the globe. Its a VERY real sense of union through a common cause..that being music and its expression as an art through our instruments. (Yeah gooey I know) Basic support for trying something different,is a good thing I feel? You must agree surely?

Given that its a difficult (for some) hybrid to play,its a brave person that takes the challenge to play an ERB in a band,some people are sadly so hostile to experimentation and change,that we are not included,and nor would we want to be.......as a fortunate result,we do appear on the fringes,some use the word 'cutting' edge, in extreme genres of music,in little gigs,sometimes in groups..sometimes solo.

Some people just prefer 'Band music' others solo work,and seeing as we aint been about to long (less than 15 years really) its a matter of taste,as you are aware,some people HATE one type of music whereas others revel in it,so far I am sorry that nothing we as ERBists has pleasured your ears,but its not to say it isnt out there...its might be happening now in a little part of somewhere ready to be heard tomorrow...Dan(Dood) and I,QotD,7string,SeiBass are working on it,but its to what we like,probably not what you like,and thats the point really...

I can recommend 'Holy Spirit' by Yves Carbonne as a nice tune,or 'Transcend' or 'Vanishing' By Jean Baudin (Who exclusivly taps his Bass in solo situations,leading to stickist confusion) and plays in a standard technique in his band Nuclear Rabbit (Im not a fan of the latter)...perhaps the works of Stewart McKinsey might catch your ear. If not then its a misfortune we do not have you as a fan,but given time,more of us are coming out of the (Ornate and highley figurative) woodwork...I hope to be one of those very soon.

Please keep an open mind...and ears...If you say you have them,then the wait will be worth it!

xRx

[The Burpster]

^^^ and that I feel is the definative narrative and statement from one of the few amongst us who does actually play ERB......

Thank you for the time and effort you put into that.

__________________________________________________________________________________

To those who dont play, or understand ERB or like ERB that's fine.....

But please do not say its wrong [b]JUST[/b] because you don't play, understand or like it.....

Any more taunts, or goading and I'll consider closing this thread.

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='ARGH' post='88012' date='Nov 13 2007, 06:44 PM']Given that its a difficult (for some) hybrid to play,its a brave person that takes the challenge to play an ERB in a band[/quote]

I for one would be interested if someone were to step up to the plate and take the challenge of using the extended range of an ERB in a band situation. It would take some very open minded and selfless musicians to create such a band. With a 4 or 5 you know your place, aurally separated from the other instruments, but with an ERB the higher registers could be easily swamped by guitar or keyboard. It'd be a refreshing change to see someone using these instruments fully in something other than a solo composition piece. C'mon you ERB players...anyone fancy the challenge?

[6stringbassist]

What are you classing as an ERB, I only play a 6 string and use it for everything from Jazz to funk and rock, and experimental stuff.

[gypsymoth]

perhaps you don't see ERB's in bands because their typical members are as close minded as, well, the typical bass player. it is quite easy not to fit into a typical band situation using a 4 string - there are plenty of bands who won't even consider you if you have a 5.
I really doubt it is the ERB players that are unwilling to step up to the plate - it's the other guys worried that their sensitive toes will be stepped on. finding the willing cohorts is the challenge - and in reality it shouldn't be as there are plenty of two guitar bands, but ...
that is my take on why these are mostly confined to solo pieces.

[Dood]

Flippin 'eck!! I have only been offline for a day and I have all this to read!! lol... I'll be back later with some good reading glasses ;o)

[martinbass7750]

what does erb stand for?

[Dood]

[quote name='martinbass7750' post='88085' date='Nov 13 2007, 09:25 PM']what does erb stand for? [/quote]

Extended Range Bass, friend! ;o)

[Alun]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='88064' date='Nov 13 2007, 08:26 PM']What are you classing as an ERB, I only play a 6 string and use it for everything from Jazz to funk and rock, and experimental stuff.[/quote]

I think it depends who you ask. Most players I know would class anything over 5 ( or even 4) , but this topic seems to define it as over 6. Tis but a name

[queenofthedepths]

Since ARGH seems to have pretty much closed the topic of extra strings, I'd like to pose a slightly different question: how much do ERB players use their upper frets? After all, that'd be taking advantage of the true extended range... I find that when I play my 6 or 7-string, I use the top end of the board a lot more than when I'm playing 4 or 5

[bass_ferret]

I admire you enthusiasm and passion Ross and would love to hear some great music made on an ERB. I think this is the one thing that is lacking as none of what I have heard has moved me, but then maybe i'm too old to be movable. Just got the Ellington Never No Lament set with some of the original Ellington/Blanton duets and that moved me mind.

I know ERB's have only been around 15 years but by the time the 4 string had been around 15 years Jamerson was showing the world what it could do and The Ox had recorded My Generation.

I think what QOTD said about extending up invites people to say it might as well be played on guitar and I think the answer to that is that it sounds different. But if the bass player is playing the guitar part on his ERB who is playing the bass and I guess this is where having more than 1 bass player comes in Perhaps this is a plan for world domination where bands will have to have 2 bass players and 1 guitarist.