TAB

[Les]

For the first time in ages I'm having to pick something out by ear, and I'm really struggling.

Anyone else just google the tab these days without trying it by ear first ?

[iamapirate]

not usually! haha, well I usually need to know the song properly before I can read the tab, or even learn it by ear. I then at least try it out by ear, then tab it

[JimBobTTD]

Yep. I usually look for the tab, but I find myself more and more playing without it after a few bars. I wish I didn't need the tab to get me started, though.

Mind you, right now I hardly have the time to learn the songs, let alone work out the music and then learn how to play them. Tab is a godsend.

[Doddy]

[quote name='iamapirate' post='782653' date='Mar 22 2010, 08:00 PM']well I usually need to know the song properly before I can read the tab,[/quote]

Hence the problem with tablature. If you are looking at pretty much all the tabs
in books or on the internet there is absolutely no rhythmic information,which
renders it as being useless unless you know the song.

I don't like tab...in the gigging world it basically doesn't exist. You will never
see a chart written in,or with, tab.

[Les]

I agree with you Doddy, unless you know the song it's not much use.

Can also see why a pro like yourself has no time for it, but for us weekend warriors it's a useful tool.

One of the big problems with TAB, and I'm not knocking anyone who kindly makes the effort and chucks it up, cos' I don't, is that a lot of it is wrong.

[thunderbird13]

I have a problem working things out by ear and either I get frustrated and spend weeks trying to learn a song or I use the tab to give me a guideline. One thing which I have found very useful in the last few months is Guitar Pro and as its in tab and notation I can get the rhythm as well although not all the tab is accurate

[OutToPlayJazz]

+1 on Doddy's comments - The biggest problem I find with tablature is the fact that there is no indication of fingering or positioning, so it just creates generation after generation of lazy-arsed players with bad technique and no reading ability. And it's usually my job to try and sort them out. *Sigh*

[Eight]

Yes. I do the same - and I don't even like tab that much.

The worst thing is most of my bass sheet music books have the tab underneath. It's just like putting the TV on at a party, you can't help but look at it. One day I'll go through and black marker the whole thing out.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Eight

[Buzz]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='782842' date='Mar 22 2010, 10:23 PM']+1 on Doddy's comments - The biggest problem I find with tablature is the fact that there is no indication of fingering or positioning, so it just creates generation after generation of lazy-arsed players with bad technique and no reading ability. And it's usually my job to try and sort them out. *Sigh*[/quote]

Look at it this way, it's at least keeping you in the job

[Marvin]

If I've wanted to learn a song I have always in the past and now turned to TAB. Unfortunately it seems to be the only available resource for the songs I wish to learn, and of course these days it's free. But, I agree with Les literally heaps of it is wrong. I'm not a very good player but even I can hear when something is completely out.

This week however, I've started on my new challenge to learn to read music. I've only been going for 2 days so I've only got to very simple bars of a max of 4 notes - you get the idea, stuff that starts you off counting etc. I've got to say though proper notation just gives you so much more information. I've been that inspired but just the little I've done I am most definitely going to pursue this.

My ear isn't very good so I've always relied on TAB, unfortunately it's just a list of notes and creates bad habits. Part of the reason for me wanting to learn to read music is to stop referring to the notes as 'string and fret no.' and instead to them as notes.

I'm going to stop now because I could go on forever.


TAB -use with caution.

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='Buzz' post='782848' date='Mar 22 2010, 10:27 PM']Look at it this way, it's at least keeping you in the job [/quote]

That's one way of looking at it, Buzz - Ta!

[quote name='Marvin' post='782851' date='Mar 22 2010, 10:28 PM']TAB -use with caution. [/quote]

Just say NO!!!

[Marvin]

[quote name='Eight' post='782847' date='Mar 22 2010, 10:27 PM']Yes. I do the same - and I don't even like tab that much.

The worst thing is most of my bass sheet music books have the tab underneath. It's just like putting the TV on at a party, you can't help but look at it. One day I'll go through and black marker the whole thing out.[/quote]

I bought a bass tuition book (now there's a novelty ) recently and it starts off with notation, so I think 'very good, no chance of being lazy here', and then half way through introduces TAB underneath. Which I thought ridiculous. Can I borrow your black marker please?

Edited March 22, 2010 by Marvin

[Les]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='782842' date='Mar 22 2010, 10:23 PM']+1 on Doddy's comments - The biggest problem I find with tablature is the fact that there is no indication of fingering or positioning, so it just creates generation after generation of lazy-arsed players with bad technique and no reading ability. And it's usually my job to try and sort them out. *Sigh*[/quote]

OTP
hear what you're saying but tab does have fingering, albeit the "tabbers idea of where you should be". Does the bass score have fingering and position ? I can make my way slowly through notation but I've never seen(or, maybe noticed) it telling you where about you should be ? Have I missed something ? Tab will indicate 3rd fret D string for F or 8th fret A string for F (same note).

Not seen it much on bass tab but classsical guitar tab very often has fingering written. Have I missed something ?

[OutToPlayJazz]

Les, in general terms if you know where you'll play a given note, it's going to be pretty obvious which position it's going to be in. Obviously there's always going to be more than one place to play things & it's just a case of playing things where you're most comfortable and where it makes the most common sense fingering. For students, I mark the position (where the first finger needs to be) with a Roman Numeral & then add fingering where necessary. I'll try and scan an example later on for you to try.

Rich.

[simon1964]

Interesting thread! I read and prefer notation to Tab for all the reasons in earlier posts. I also think I've got a reasonable ear when it comes to transcribing bass lines.

BUT I have to admit that, when I need to learn a song quickly for my covers band, one of the first things I do is google for the Tab. I feel guilty admitting it, and I guess its making me lazy too!

I think OTPJ has a serious point in that Tab has created a generation who can't read - reading notation gives so much more information than Tab ever can. You could never rely on Tab for a song you don't already know, whereas I could get by sight reading notation (albeit badly!) on an unfamiliar song.

[Les]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='783126' date='Mar 23 2010, 10:01 AM']I'll try and scan an example later on for you to try.

Rich.[/quote]

Thanks Rich, that would be cool. Something dead simple though, remember I have to stick my tongue out and wear a worried look when I'm staring at music.

Not sure I agree with you and Simon on the generation of lazy players not learning to read. I'm from the pre tab era, pre bloody internet actually and I never learned, nor did most of the people I've played with. Not that I'm saying it's a good thing, just making a point.

We didn't have tab, so we did it by ear. Also tab seems to be freely available to find and download on the net' , is music as readily available ?

[simon1964]

[quote name='Les' post='783160' date='Mar 23 2010, 10:34 AM']Not sure I agree with you and Simon on the generation of lazy players not learning to read. I'm from the pre tab era, pre bloody internet actually and I never learned, nor did most of the people I've played with. Not that I'm saying it's a good thing, just making a point.

We didn't have tab, so we did it by ear. Also tab seems to be freely available to find and download on the net' , is music as readily available ?[/quote]

I take your point Les (I'm from the pre-internet age too!). I think the problem with Tab is that it leads to the worst of both worlds - you end up not training your ear to learn lines, and at the same time only being able to "read" within the confines of Tab, ie no time info etc. At least, that's where I find it makes me lazy.

Edited March 23, 2010 by simon1964

[thunderbird13]

The one which I never understood in the tab vs reading debate is that it doesnt take into account the availability of sheet music - for classic rock stuff there just doesnt seem to be much of a market for sheet music ( for bass that is ) and so I have rely upon tab if I cant work it out by ear

[Les]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='783126' date='Mar 23 2010, 10:01 AM']I'll try and scan an example later on for you to try.

Rich.[/quote]

Oh Rich, if your example was the bass line to Maggie May, that would be awsome

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='783174' date='Mar 23 2010, 10:56 AM']The one which I never understood in the tab vs reading debate is that it doesnt take into account the availability of sheet music - for classic rock stuff there just doesnt seem to be much of a market for sheet music ( for bass that is ) and so I have rely upon tab if I cant work it out by ear[/quote]

That maybe answers my earlier question.

I know the debate about tab will run untill the end of time but I really don't see any evil in it. It's a tool, and a really useful tool. OK, I'll admit it does seem to rob you of your ear a bit as I've found out, but surely that would be the same if you always used music ?

[thunderbird13]

I hate to say it and I'm not being deliberatley provocative But sometimes I think there's a it of snobbery comes into this argument as well.I mean if someone says play a C of someone says play the A string 3rd Fret your still being told what to play., I know the ryhthm thing is different ( which is tabs biggest drawback ) but once you have the notes you can fit then in by ear cant you ?

Edited March 23, 2010 by thunderbird13

[Doddy]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='783222' date='Mar 23 2010, 11:37 AM']I hate to say it and I'm not being deliberatley provocative But sometimes I think there's a it of snobbery comes into this argument as well.I mean if someone says play a C of someone says play the A string 3rd Fret your still being told what to play., I know the ryhthm thing is different ( which is tabs biggest drawback ) but once you have the notes you can fit then in by ear cant you ?[/quote]

I think the 'snobbery' comes from the fact that,like I said earlier,in the gigging
world, tab doesn't exist.
I've always seen reading as a basic musical concept-the first time I picked up
a bass I was shown notes both on the bass and the stave. Most people who now
learn seem to try an avoid it,and I don't understand why. Laziness? If so then
tab only encourages the player to be more lazy.

As far as it's all telling you what to play,what if a non bass player is trying to
tell you the chords? They will never tell you a fret number. Likewise if you tell
a piano player to play a '3rd fret,A string', you will look like a prat.

On the rhythmic side,unless you already know the song,it makes no sense. Is
it 8th notes? Are they dotted? Triplets? You simply have no way of knowing.

[Ray]

I generally work things out by ear but for difficult stuff like the head from Donna Lee and Teen Town I have to turn to Tab.

With Tab you don't need to know the fretboard. I can play Donna Lee and Teen Town up to speed and pretty cleanly and if someone heard me play them they might think I'm a half decent player.

The truth is that I can only play these tunes because my technique is pretty good and I can remember where the Tab told me to put my fingers. I don't necessarily understand why I'm playing the notes I'm playing, I.E. the relationship between the notes and the chords they're being played over.

Tab has made me rely on shapes and muscle memory which I find limits my playing. Unfortunately, it's a rut I'm finding difficult to get out of...

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Ray' post='783321' date='Mar 23 2010, 12:44 PM']The truth is that I can only play these tunes because my technique is pretty good and I can remember where the Tab told me to put my fingers. I don't necessarily understand why I'm playing the notes I'm playing, I.E. the relationship between the notes and the chords they're being played over.

Tab has made me rely on shapes and muscle memory which I find limits my playing. Unfortunately, it's a rut I'm finding difficult to get out of...[/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Ray. TAB is a tool, agreed, but it is like taking the wheel nuts off you car with a spoon. Its often the wrong tool for the job.

The fact is that reading music is the Swiss Army knife of the music world. It is not just about sight reading charts in studios and at show gigs. It is one of the most tried and tested means of communication between composers and players, teachers and students, arrangers and performers etc. It is a fantastic aid to learning and can save you vast amounts of time if you can do it to a functional level. I can't read fly s*** because I don't read enough but I can get by on most gigs most of the time. What I can do is write things down for rehearsals so less time is wasted - or read things that others have written down. It is a tool that provides me with an infallable memory, unlike the 'learn by ear' players I often play with who struggle to remember the arrangements they thought they had learned last week. I may write out a whole chart or just jot down a core groove, unison line or scale for soloing. It makes you play things you would never have thought of by yourself and gets you out of ruts in a minute. It is not a perfect tool: it doesn't communicate many of the idiosyncracies of genre or groove, for instance, but it does give you a massively useful tool that can be used in all sorts of ways to make you a better musician. It is NOT just about sight reading on gigs. The man who persuaded my of the usefulness of reading and started my passion for the skill was saxophonist Iain Ballamy, one of the UK's leading [i]improvising musicians[/i]. Go figure.

Don't listen to people who tell you its not useful. I agree its not 'necessary' in an absolute sense but don't let that con you into thinking its ok to be lazy because you can get away without it. Of course you can but you limit your options unnecessarily. Reading the dots well is a flippin' marvellous buzz (I still remember the feeling I had when I read 'Sir Duke' for the first time cold on a gig - you can't buy that feeling) and is a lot more useful that tab. People like tab because it makes sense on day one. Written music may take a week to get to understand. Big deal. It is time well spent. The irony is that, once you 'get' it, its no harder than tab anyway.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Johnston' post='783347' date='Mar 23 2010, 12:54 PM']When I started I used the songbooks with the tab below the score. I could never pick up sight reading in school so it made sense to use the tabs but I could remember what the 'symbols' meant when it came to timing so ended up using both.[/quote]

If you are looking at both the stave and the tab,you are essentially doubling your work load by
reading two things at once unnecessarilly.

Also,the rhythm is the hardest part to read,so if you can understand that by looking at the stave,
I don't get why you need something to tell you what fret to play-you should be able to work out the notes
pretty easily.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Doddy

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='783364' date='Mar 23 2010, 01:06 PM']It makes you play things you would never have thought of by yourself and gets you out of ruts in a minute. It is not a perfect tool: it doesn't communicate many of the idiosyncracies of genre or groove, for instance, but it does give you a massively useful tool that can be used in all sorts of ways to make you a better musician.[/quote]

Sorry I just dont get. I learnt to read dots and , given enough time , could struggle through a very basic piece just by reading but I've never felt that it was anything more than another way to learn a song. Surely if you want to understand music , see the relationship between notes, learn your fretboad , understand chords and break out of a rut then scales are the thing to go for and reading music is just a way of communicating

Am I missing something