Tension?

[Mr Fudge]

I have recently been gigging my old Jazz bass that I have neglected for a few years, and thoroughly enjoyed so too may I add. Last night I decided it was time to restring "number 1" and reintroduce her back to the world. I noticed and kind of already knew that "number 1" seems to be more highly strung???

My old Jazz has generally more give and play in the strings and I really don't know why this is. Both are pretty standard Fender Jazz basses. Both have slim C profile necks. Both have the same manufacture and guage strings, both have very comfortable action.

The only difference is one is a maple board and the other rosewood. One has reverse lollipop type tuners and the other standard. The higher tension neck is the maple/ reverse tuners.

Im reasonably competent at set up and a bit of low level neck tweeking and possibly suffering from a bit of bass paranoia, but I would really like to get number 1 as playable as number 2 if you know what I mean,

Cheers Mr Fudge.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Are they both the same scale length?

Other things like action, truss rod setting and set up can all change the feel of a bass.

[Mr Fudge]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='783133' date='Mar 23 2010, 10:07 AM']Are they both the same scale length?

Other things like action, truss rod setting and set up can all change the feel of a bass.[/quote]


yes same scale, action is comfortable and I would describe a pretty low, I have tweeked the rod and micro tilt (75RI) maple neck, but this was only small scale when I swapped the body from a Marcus Miller to standard jazz body.

Perhaps I could take a bit off the rod and raise the saddles a knacker. Does this make sense?

Edited March 23, 2010 by Mr Fudge

[Doddy]

I'm not 100% sure on this,but don't the strings have to be at a certain tension
to give the desired pitch??
In which case,it's probably something else.
Someone else probably knows more than me on the science side of things.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Doddy' post='783419' date='Mar 23 2010, 01:45 PM']I'm not 100% sure on this,but don't the strings have to be at a certain tension
to give the desired pitch??[/quote]
From a physics point of view, that's correct; for the same scale length and the same strings (by guage and material and construction) then the 'tension' is the same for the same note. See here: [url="http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm"]Human Perception of String Tension and Compliance in Stringed Musical Instruments[/url]

[quote]The tension of the string of a stringed musical instrument is defined completely by the pitch the string is tuned to, its vibrating length, and its mass (weight) per unit of length. This is a matter of basic physics. But there are all sorts of other quantities and qualities that are said to affect string tension. They do not, but (and this is a big but) some of these may indeed affect the compliance of the string, and this will affect how tight the string feels to the player.[/quote]

[EssentialTension]

If you're certain the strings etc. are exactly the same, I think you need to look for other possible differences such as:

* 'through-body' or 'through bridge' stringing
* shorter versus longer distances after the bridge saddles or nut to the fixing point
* greater or lesser break angle over the nut or the bridge saddles

to explain the different levels of compliance/elasticity - i.e. what we often call 'tension' but which is not, in physics speak, 'tension' at all.

Edited March 23, 2010 by EssentialTension

[51m0n]

Well if they arent exactly the same make and size of strings then this is completely understandable.

The tension is how much the strings are pulled. This is related to the resultant stiffness of the string, but that stiffness is also dependant on mass, material and construction.

DR Hi Beams are really bendy at concert pitch, d'Addarios are like pylon cables in comparision (this is IME having swapped the d'Addarios that came on my Roscoe for Hi-beams).

[Mr Fudge]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='783707' date='Mar 23 2010, 05:26 PM']If you're certain the strings etc. are exactly the same, I think you need to look for other possible differences such as:

* 'through-body' or 'through bridge' stringing
* shorter versus longer distances after the bridge saddles or nut to the fixing point
* greater or lesser break angle over the nut or the bridge saddles

to explain the different levels of compliance/elasticity - i.e. what we often call 'tension' but which is not, in physics speak, 'tension' at all.[/quote]

The "more tense" guitar has through bridge stringing and "less tense" through body. This I think is the most obvious difference on reflection. They are virtually the same bass, scale, strings, skinny jazz neck. I modded the maple board one with some wizzards that are great.

thanks.

[Mr Fudge]

[quote name='51m0n' post='783714' date='Mar 23 2010, 05:31 PM']Well if they arent exactly the same make and size of strings then this is completely understandable.

The tension is how much the strings are pulled. This is related to the resultant stiffness of the string, but that stiffness is also dependant on mass, material and construction.

DR Hi Beams are really bendy at concert pitch, d'Addarios are like pylon cables in comparision (this is IME having swapped the d'Addarios that came on my Roscoe for Hi-beams).[/quote]


Might give some DR Hi Beams a whirl.

thanks.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Mr Fudge' post='784121' date='Mar 23 2010, 10:54 PM']The "more tense" guitar has through bridge stringing and "less tense" through body. This I think is the most obvious difference on reflection. They are virtually the same bass, scale, strings, skinny jazz neck. I modded the maple board one with some wizzards that are great.

thanks.[/quote]

So the string lengths are different.

Strings stretch slightly while you're playing them, the longer they are, the more "give" they have. That'll be what makes the through body strung bass feel like the strings have lower tension (though at rest and after the initial attack they'll theoretically be the same tension and length).

You could just try getting slightly thinner strings on your bridge strung bass.

[Doddy]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='785097' date='Mar 24 2010, 08:19 PM']So the string lengths are different.

Strings stretch slightly while you're playing them, the longer they are, the more "give" they have. That'll be what makes the through body strung bass feel like the strings have lower tension (though at rest and after the initial attack they'll theoretically be the same tension and length).

You could just try getting slightly thinner strings on your bridge strung bass.[/quote]

I'm unsure about this,but anyway...........

I don't know if through body or top load stringing makes that much of a difference.
On a standard instrument the strings are put up to pitch over 34" from nut to bridge-I don't think that
the length of string beyond either of these two points actually makes a difference.
People can talk about 'perceived tension', but however long the string is beyond the nut and bridge
is pretty irrelevant.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Doddy' post='785206' date='Mar 24 2010, 09:44 PM']I'm unsure about this,but anyway...........

I don't know if through body or top load stringing makes that much of a difference.
On a standard instrument the strings are put up to pitch over 34" from nut to bridge-I don't think that
the length of string beyond either of these two points actually makes a difference.
People can talk about 'perceived tension', but however long the string is beyond the nut and bridge
is pretty irrelevant.[/quote]

If you have a string that's 36" long from anchor at the the bridge to the machine head (on a 34" scale bass), it'll only stretch a tiny amount more than the length of nut to saddle (which is the length of the string that affects pitch). If you had one that was 38" long, there's more string either side of the nut-saddle length that will also stretch, making the string seem more flexible.

To be honest, that's more logic that professional opinion. I don't know how much difference it would make in the real world, but assuming the OP's basses are both the same scale with a similar setup and the same strings, it would make sense that the through body stringing is responsible. Ultimately if the strings are identical (mass, length and pitch) then they should be the same tension and if the action is similar on both, nothing else on the bass would affect the perceived tension.

Edited March 25, 2010 by ThomBassmonkey

[Mr Fudge]

thanks for the input.

I have played bass for many years and had a fair few, The higher tension bass is still a great bass and a great player. I think that the strings through body and perhaps the angle they go over the saddles has an impact.

Im going to PMT in brum in a few weeks to sit down with a few P and J's as I have P gass at the moment. I might get some insight there.

Cheers Mr F.

[51m0n]

Hmmmmm.

Dont think some of this is accurate.

The length of the string that matters is the length from the nut to the bridge. Not the length from the tuner head to the ball end. Since those extra lengths on each end are not part of the vibrating string.

The tension required to get the string to pitch is dependant on the length of the string (as described above), the active part of the string if you will, the pitch you want it to get to, the material that the string is made of, and the construction of the string.

I could have 2 miles of string from end to end at a .105 gauge, if I have a 34" section in the middle of it, then the tension required to get the string up to pitch in that middle section will be the same as if the entire string length was 38". The excess length is not relevant since the length of the vibrating node is fixed.

The longer that active length is the higher the tension required. So a 35" scale length (nut to bridge) requires more tension than the exact same material, gauge and construction string on a 34" scale length neck. Not much more though.

Angle over the bridge makes virtually no difference to the tension, string through thte body will make virtually no difference to the tension, have a straight in line 4 or 5 tuning pegs on the top verse a 2+2 or 3+2 headstock, will make no difference. To the tension on the string at a given pitch. Whether these make some measurable differenceto the tone is something you can all argue about for days - I dont think it really does, compared to something more fundamental like string material density and construction.

Dons tin hat, gets into bunker and waits for the shouts of "incoming!".... :ph34r:

[ThomBassmonkey]

I stand corrected then, my mistake.

[BigRedX]

You all need to read the link the EssentialTension posted.

The problem occurs because people talk about tension when they actually mean something else. Tension has a proper physical definition and for a vibrating string Length, Weight, Pitch and Tension are all related by a definite mathematical formula. Only the vibrating part off the string are affected by changing values in this formula.

However what a lot of people mean when they talk about the "tension" of a string is the Compliance and this can be affected by non-vibrating string length behind the saddle or the nut, so while doing things such as changing the break angle or the length beyond the witness points of a string doesn't change the tension of the string it can change the compliance and this is what makes those factors alter the feel.

[Doddy]

[quote name='51m0n' post='785691' date='Mar 25 2010, 12:08 PM']Hmmmmm.

Dont think some of this is accurate.

The length of the string that matters is the length from the nut to the bridge. Not the length from the tuner head to the ball end. Since those extra lengths on each end are not part of the vibrating string.

The tension required to get the string to pitch is dependant on the length of the string (as described above), the active part of the string if you will, the pitch you want it to get to, the material that the string is made of, and the construction of the string.

I could have 2 miles of string from end to end at a .105 gauge, if I have a 34" section in the middle of it, then the tension required to get the string up to pitch in that middle section will be the same as if the entire string length was 38". The excess length is not relevant since the length of the vibrating node is fixed.

The longer that active length is the higher the tension required. So a 35" scale length (nut to bridge) requires more tension than the exact same material, gauge and construction string on a 34" scale length neck. Not much more though.

Angle over the bridge makes virtually no difference to the tension, string through thte body will make virtually no difference to the tension, have a straight in line 4 or 5 tuning pegs on the top verse a 2+2 or 3+2 headstock, will make no difference. To the tension on the string at a given pitch. Whether these make some measurable differenceto the tone is something you can all argue about for days - I dont think it really does, compared to something more fundamental like string material density and construction.

Dons tin hat, gets into bunker and waits for the shouts of "incoming!".... :ph34r:[/quote]


Yeah,that's what I was thinking

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='785738' date='Mar 25 2010, 12:47 PM']You all need to read the link the EssentialTension posted.[/quote]
Yes, I heartily commend that link to the forum.

[Mr Fudge]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='786104' date='Mar 25 2010, 05:49 PM']Yes, I heartily commend that link to the forum.[/quote]


Thanks mate, I missed this first time!!

I spent an hour playing my tenser bass last night and soon got used of it again. It is all about prceived tension or rather "compliance" Im restringing it over the weekend and may spend more time stretching the strings as they are new on.

I still don't really know if this will make a difference.

The laws of physics say no, but I have 2 very similar basses with notable differences in compliance.