Chord sequence confusion

[robdowall]

So guys...

Im in the key of Bbminor
im looking at Eva Cassidy' Autumn Leaves..

im stuck on a small section
F7 - Go - Ao - Bbm7

I know where all but the Go comes from.
F7 just V of Bb
Ao is the VII from Bb Harmonic minor
and Bbm7 is obv the I

im thinking that Go is coming from C Phrygian dom (the V chord)
but im getting confused with myself!

help please!

[Doddy]

I'm not familiar with those changes in Autumn Leaves. Usually it's
just basically a bunch of decending II-V-I's

[robdowall]

[quote name='Doddy' post='788970' date='Mar 28 2010, 10:52 PM']I'm not familiar with those changes in Autumn Leaves. Usually it's
just basically a bunch of decending II-V-I's[/quote]


yeah find a copy of the chords for Eva Cassidy's version
its very different

[Major-Minor]

To really understand chords and chord symbols, it helps to look at the notes which make up each chord and try to spot how those notes move or resolve to the next chord.

Go to a piano (or keyboard) and look at the chords you mention:

F7 consists of F A C Eb
Gdim G Bb Db This chord has similarities to Bbminor7 (Bb Db F Ab) 2 notes are common to both.
(If there was also an F in this chord, you could call it Bbm6)
(If it was called Gdim7, it would also have an Fb in it - easier to think of this as an E)

Can you see how the notes of F7 move smoothly into the notes of Gdim ?


The chord of Gdim then slides up a tone to the A dim
(A diminished chord is very unstable so wants desperately to resolve to somewhere - and it doesn't much care where !)

Look at the notes of Adim A C Eb

Can you spot the similarity to F7 ? Add an F to this Adim chord and you have created F7.
That's why the A dim resolves so smoothly into Bbm7.

By the way:
The "C Phrygian Dominant" is a modal SCALE not a CHORD, and, while it is important to understand how scales can relate to chords, I really don't think it is a good idea to think about Modes while trying to get to grips with the basic harmonic movement of a tune.

Hope this helps

The Major

Edited March 31, 2010 by Major-Minor

[robdowall]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='791511' date='Mar 31 2010, 08:22 AM']Hope this helps

The Major[/quote]


Ok thank you, but in terms of re-writing this into roman numerals what would you call it?

cheers

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='robdowall' post='793305' date='Apr 1 2010, 01:44 PM']Ok thank you, but in terms of re-writing this into roman numerals what would you call it?

cheers[/quote]
Sorry don't understand your question ! Re-writing WHAT into roman numerals ?

[robdowall]

Well im harmonically analysing the piece so if its Bbmin then i write a (I) above it, basically so it can be moved into another key more easily, so i was asking as im writing it into roman numerals what would the Gb be.
e.g.
F7 is a V7
and Bbmin7 is just Imin7

i dont really know how to explain the numerals thing, i might be preaching to the converted and u might know what i mean.

sorry for the confusion

[Major-Minor]

Ah ... so when you put Go (G diminished) in your original post, did you really mean Gb (G flat) ?

The Major

[robdowall]

ahh no Gdim

[Major-Minor]

Ok ... So it's a G diminished triad in the key of Bbminor.

The Roman Numeral system was first commonly used by musicians and academics in the 18th Century (or so I believe - perhaps someone might know better ?!).

It's starting point is always the MAJOR scale and the triads built on each note.
Despite your example referring to a minor key, we still have to relate the numerals we use as if it is a major key.

In Bb minor (5 flats), the 6th note of the scale is Gb. So you might have expected to write Ⅵ for a triad built on this note, but in fact this should correctly be written as bⅥ ( flat 6) with the resulting MAJOR triad of Gb Bb Db, hence the use of the Upper case Roman 6.
(to be clear: a MAJOR triad is always written with the Upper case, a Minor triad with the Lower case)

If the notes are G Bb Db (G diminished), this should be written ⅵ o ( a minor triad, hence the lower case Roman 6, but with a diminished 5th, hence the"o", built on the 6th note away from Bb in the MAJOR scale).

The G natural in this case is a note from the Bb melodic minor scale. Bb C Db Eb F G A Bb

The Roman Numeral system is great for conventional music analysis and its an essential part of music education.
Thereafter its usage is somewhat limited. I suppose what I mean is don't get too hung up about it ! There are a few confusions in this system, and various academics have added their own take on it, adding further confusion !
If you try reading several different tomes on the subject, you will see what I mean.

The Major

[Major-Minor]

Actually, if you want to transpose a piece into another key, the Roman numeral method is the long way round. Much easier to work out the INTERVAL from one key to another and apply that interval to each note and chord symbol.

So if you were transposing from Bb minor to, say, D minor, the interval from Bb to D is a major 3rd or 4 semitones higher. So just take everything up by that amount. Or it could be 8 semitones lower ( a minor 6th) if you needed the notes at a lower pitch.

The Major