whats this cab like? is it good or not so good?

[OldGit]

[quote name='ergon' post='88528' date='Nov 14 2007, 05:17 PM']my cube is 100watts[/quote]

100 watts into 8 ohms?

Ok Well you will be a bit louder with an extension cab but it will be borderline.
If you have an energetic drummer and a pair of loudish guitarists you, and your amp, are going to struggle.

As a rule of thumb you'll need at least 200 normal watts (or 150 peavey watts - dunno why but they are louder) to keep up with a guitarist or two, even if they are using 20 watt practice amps. This is because bass needs loads of headroom to retain clarity of sound and guitarists think a 20 watt amp turned up full sounds OK. 200 watts is actually only twice as loud as 20 watts anyway (it's physics, man) so with 1000 watts of drums hammering away next to you you'll likely need to upgrade your amp at some point.

or ....... buy a used 300 watt combo from someone like TE, Ashdown, etc and use the Cube as a preamp and the combo as the power amp.

That should be possible using line out and line in sockets.

[ergon]

hahaha, thats gonna cost too much! surely if you have 100watts and a ttach a cab that has 4 speakers you are getting 100watts worth through all the speakers?

[MB1]

MB1.

Apparently.....i am told ,these cabs are worth checking out (from a stockist) and are good value for money, if your buying from gak youll get a guarantee (which you wont get with second hand gear). Try and get into a music shop, and try before you buy!

[ergon]

what cabs? is there a link? i can't find one if there is

[OldGit]

[quote name='ergon' post='88583' date='Nov 14 2007, 06:28 PM']what cabs? is there a link? i can't find one if there is[/quote]

MB1's just answered your original question.

[Pikefloyd]

[quote name='OldGit' post='88548' date='Nov 14 2007, 05:34 PM']200 watts is actually only twice as loud as 20 watts anyway (it's physics, man) so with 1000 watts of drums hammering away next to you you'll likely need to upgrade your amp at some point.[/quote]

Just a little trivia here!

As a rule of thumb I use;

+3dB is doubling power
-3dB is halving power
+10dB is sticking a zero on the end
+20dB is sticking two zeros on the end
+30dB is sticking three zeros on the end

With reference to 1 watt
0dB = 1 watt
3dB = 2 watts (doubling)
6dB = 4 watts (doubling again)
9dB = 8 watts
10dB = 10 watts (add a zero)
13dB = 20 watts (add a zero and double)
16dB = 40 watts
19dB = 80 watts
20dB = 100 watts (add two zeros)
23dB = 200 watts (add two zeros and double)
26dB = 400 watts
29dB = 800 watts
30dB = 1000 watts (add three zeros)

a bit dull but but may be of interest to some of you!!

[OldGit]

[quote name='ergon' post='88554' date='Nov 14 2007, 05:40 PM']hahaha, thats gonna cost too much! surely if you have 100watts and a ttach a cab that has 4 speakers you are getting 100watts worth through all the speakers?[/quote]


Well as I say, it may be enough. Depends on what you are doing.
I don't know the physics, just that in my experience you need more than 100 watts of bass in a band situation if there's drums and you are playing in a room that holds, or is holding, more than about 50 people. unless you have a sizable PA.

There's loads in the tinterwebnet about how sound and watts are related but you don't get 4x100 watts from a 4 speaker cab Or you could ask a few questions in the tech thread.
Bill Fitzmaurice knows a thing or two
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=7581&view=findpost&p=84124"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=84124[/url]

Edited November 14, 2007 by OldGit

[Rich]

And bear in mind that the 100 watt figure is the absolute maximum, with the amp shrieking its head off and on the verge of frying. Realistically you will never get 100 watts from a 100 watt amp.

[ergon]

I've used the cube twice alone live and it was hearable (just) on 3/4 volume in a gym filled with 200 people and an insane drummer and guitarist so it is quite punchy, i just want to make it louder lol, it's not much to ask stupid physics!

[OldGit]

[quote name='Pikefloyd' post='88651' date='Nov 14 2007, 09:08 PM']Just a little trivia here!

As a rule of thumb I use;

+3dB is doubling power
-3dB is halving power
+10dB is sticking a zero on the end
+20dB is sticking two zeros on the end
+30dB is sticking three zeros on the end

With reference to 1 watt
0dB = 1 watt
3dB = 2 watts (doubling)
6dB = 4 watts (doubling again)
9dB = 8 watts
10dB = 10 watts (add a zero)
13dB = 20 watts (add a zero and double)
16dB = 40 watts
19dB = 80 watts
20dB = 100 watts (add two zeros)
23dB = 200 watts (add two zeros and double)
26dB = 400 watts
29dB = 800 watts
30dB = 1000 watts (add three zeros)

a bit dull but but may be of interest to some of you!![/quote]

So how many Db does it have to increase by to sound twice as loud?

[OldGit]

[quote name='ergon' post='88667' date='Nov 14 2007, 09:32 PM']I've used the cube twice alone live and it was hearable (just) on 3/4 volume in a gym filled with 200 people and an insane drummer and guitarist so it is quite punchy, i just want to make it louder lol, it's not much to ask stupid physics![/quote]

Ah yesssssss A constantly recurring problem... I have a 7 watt 40 year old WEM practice amp that sounds fantastic and I'd love to have a 500 watt version of that sound.

I guess you're going to have to try it.

[queenofthedepths]

10!

[queenofthedepths]

+10 dB to double the volume, I mean - I hadn't counted on you posting again just before I responded

[OldGit]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='88679' date='Nov 14 2007, 09:57 PM']+10 dB to double the volume, I mean - I hadn't counted on you posting again just before I responded[/quote]


Yeah I'd always figured that was how it was: 10 times the watts for twice the volume...

[ergon]

[quote]guess you're going to have to try it.[/quote]
I guess I am if it doesn't work what i'll do is buy a head and have a chain from my bass to the cube to the head to the cab, so the sube is effectively an effects box with a speaker, that would work.... right?

[cheddatom]

You could take the head out of the cube, and put it ontop of a nice loud combo.

[OldGit]

[quote name='ergon' post='88683' date='Nov 14 2007, 10:02 PM']I guess I am if it doesn't work what i'll do is buy a head and have a chain from my bass to the cube to the head to the cab, so the sube is effectively an effects box with a speaker, that would work.... right?[/quote]


Ok Some simple amplification stuff :

There's three bits to amplification:

The preamp - that makes all the wizzo sounds;
The amp - that makes it loud;
The speaker- that makes it audible.

You like the sounds your Cube preamp makes but it's not loud enough thus you could use the pre-amp in the cube and direct the sounds via a louder amp with speakers to match.

To do that you "disconnect" the cube preamp section from its amp and speaker and send the signal out to the louder amp and speakers.

So if you use a combo, such as a TE or Ashdown 300 watt 4x10, your preamp will replace the preamp in the loud combo (logically, not physically) and use its louder amp and speakers. Thus you'll have a louder version of what you have now, but maybe coloured by the sound characteristics of the louder combo's amp, speakers and cabinet

I think you can do this via line out and line in sockets but a tech would need to chip in here to explain exactly how you do it ...

[charic]

How about getting a cheap second hand combo? Ashdown stuff has quite a good sound in my opinion and is of a fair price. 2nd hand you mite find yourself a bargain. Possibly at the price of your cab that your interested in.

PS behringer stuff = mixed reviews but you seem to get what you pay for, which in this price range isnt a great thing to say. I find it unreliable and touch n go on reviews. Be careful

[ergon]

I've had a lot of physics explained to me over the past 2 days, one of them being, you only need a 100 watt amp to drive a 500 watt speaker however, my cube as it turn out is only 28watt RMS, meaning it's not actually 100watt, it's just a really efficiant 30watt amp. If i were to want to use the 1000watt behringer cab without blowing it up or using it inefficiantly i would need a 200watt amp, behringers ultrabass head is 409 watt RMS meaning your stack would need to be a minimum of 2020watts combined to be running, this is apparently because of the safety room required to avoid blowing up valuable equipment, the reviews are mixed, but can i trust them anyway? i don't know what people have tried them with, if they were using the correct impedance or too powerfull an amp for their stack at full volume constantly. was the rig up a against the wall and unable to get enough air to areas that required it for cooling? was the room very very dusty? I've decided that i'm going to do this properly. i'm using the cube, and a 100watt amp then i'm going to get a new 500watt amp, why not second hand? simply because i want to try everything straight from the factory and if stuff goes wrong to have a garrantee to fall back on, i'm not after appreciation of value, if i was i would buy a house (not in britian however with it's iminent price crash that all politicians are denying) this project is officially on hold untill i get some money together.

[stewblack]

Makes sense to me mate. You can listen to all the advice in the world but in the end you'll go with what you fancy and learn from your own experience.
I'm like you, I do like a guarantee, I've never bought second hand stuff that hasn't developed some sort of trouble and you have no comeback do you? Just a sense that a bit of saving up first and you could have got the real deal.

[ergon]

[quote name='stewblack' post='89603' date='Nov 16 2007, 08:03 PM']Makes sense to me mate. You can listen to all the advice in the world but in the end you'll go with what you fancy and learn from your own experience.
I'm like you, I do like a guarantee, I've never bought second hand stuff that hasn't developed some sort of trouble and you have no comeback do you? Just a sense that a bit of saving up first and you could have got the real deal.[/quote]

thats exactly what i mean, on the off chance that there is a manufacturing fault that may not have yet reared it's ugly head in a second hand amp i'm stuffed but in a new amp i've got a garantee for 3 years or so that will cover me if there are faults or if it's just plain crap.

[OldGit]

[quote name='ergon' post='89645' date='Nov 16 2007, 09:13 PM']or if it's just plain crap.[/quote]

Well you could be covered for that .. but I very much doubt you get any joy asking for your money back - that will be down to taste or "user error", especially if you try oit in teh shop before buying.

Remember you get what you pay for.

New is nice if you have the money. But, of course, if you don't like it and have to sell it on you instantly loose around 50% or your investment.

Maybe there's a louder combo you can get that will do what your Cube does, rather than get all complicated with the cube plus amps and speakers ... There's plenty of emulator systems about like the Line 6 and Fender ones, plus PODs, BOSS GT6B type floorboards with emulation and effects etc etc etc

[ergon]

Yeah but at the end of the day i will look back at me cube and be saying i'm sorry as it weeps whilst i play through a different combo of betrayal! plus complecated is fun

[Jack]

[quote name='ergon' post='89587' date='Nov 16 2007, 07:34 PM']I've had a lot of physics explained to me over the past 2 days, one of them being, you only need a 100 watt amp to drive a 500 watt speaker however, my cube as it turn out is only 28watt RMS, meaning it's not actually 100watt, it's just a really efficiant 30watt amp. If i were to want to use the 1000watt behringer cab without blowing it up or using it inefficiantly i would need a 200watt amp, behringers ultrabass head is 409 watt RMS meaning your stack would need to be a minimum of 2020watts combined to be running, this is apparently because of the safety room required to avoid blowing up valuable equipment, the reviews are mixed, but can i trust them anyway? i don't know what people have tried them with, if they were using the correct impedance or too powerfull an amp for their stack at full volume constantly. was the rig up a against the wall and unable to get enough air to areas that required it for cooling? was the room very very dusty? I've decided that i'm going to do this properly. i'm using the cube, and a 100watt amp then i'm going to get a new 500watt amp, why not second hand? simply because i want to try everything straight from the factory and if stuff goes wrong to have a garrantee to fall back on, i'm not after appreciation of value, if i was i would buy a house (not in britian however with it's iminent price crash that all politicians are denying) this project is officially on hold untill i get some money together.[/quote]

Hey, just to clear up a few points here.

First, whomever told you this is talking out of their behind.

You can have cabs that handle 20 bazillion watts of power and use a 3 watt amp, wont make a damn bit of difference. Many people make blanket statements like 'underpowering is bad for cabs' and they think they're right, that they're doing you a favour but you need to be aware of all of the facts first.

The thing is, if you drive an amp to the point of clipping (that horrible sound when its running flat-out) it can put out power much higher than its rated for, for a long period of time. Lets use an example rig of a head that puts out 100 watts and a cab that can handle 150 watts. This seems senible right? Plenty of margin for error. But its not really because 100 watts is nothing (personally I'd never gig with less that 300, but thats just me) so you turn your amp right up all the way. Lets see where this plan goes downhill.

A head run into serious clipping can increase its output by 3db very easily. So now the 100 watt head is doing 200 watts continuously into a cabinet that can only handle 150. Result? Damaged speakers. And people will tell you that because this happened to them, you should never underpower a speaker cos it'll be bad.

However, lets say your 100 watt head is feeding a cab that will take 1000. No damaged speakers even if you run the amp to 11 all night. You see now where these 'never underpower or you'll be eaten by goblins' people are going wrong?

Conversely, a big amp that's run well within its limits can often be used safely on cabs even with lower power ratings. Lets use an amp that does 450 watts and a cab that will take 300 watts. Because the amp is being run clean and not clipped and because you're not using the amp to its full volume the cab will be fine. An upside is when you slap that low B and use the full power from your big amp even if the cab gets 900 watts for a millisecond (+3db remember?) it will be fine and just keep on rocking. 900 watts all night will most likely result in a short (but spectacular) fireworks display on stage, so be careful with that volume control.

What's the point of all this? Power handling is one of the LEAST important factors to consider when buying a rig. Power output can be VERY important, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. As long as the amp is loud enough (clean, unclipped power) and the cab is somewhere in the same ballpark, everything should be fine. The onus is YOU the operator, if something sounds bad, or speaker cones are shooting at your ankles, something isn't right.

That second example? Its one of my rigs and serves me just fine.

This has been a public service announcement brought to you by Jack Elliott. (Who is sick of amp disinformation!)

Edited November 17, 2007 by Jack

[Jack]

Heh, Ive just remembered this thread is actually about Behringer gear.

Theres a massive 'business practice' issue you need to be made aware of first, go google. That alone means Id never buy any of it, ever, even if it was the best gear in the world and they paid me to use it. Id rather hum my lines through a mic. But thats up to you.

As an example, go find Bob Lee (of QSC amplifiers). He's very active online and actually wrote some of the Behringer manual. Of course, they didnt tell him that as they copied the RMX amps they were also nicking word-for-word excerpts from the manual. Imagine the mirth and glee that QSC had that day.

Then there is the issue of reliability, again, google. It works great for many people, but seems to blow up a lot too.

Lastly, there is another issue. A huge-elephant in the room issue. Used Peavey gear would hold its value better (fact) can be found cheaper when the right deal comes along (fact) sound better (my opinion) and last longer (my opinion) than anything Behringer make.

Hell, I sold my Ashdown rig for £next-to-nothing so there's plenty of stuff out there.

I'm by NO means a gear snob, I like a lot of brands that are poo-pooed by other people. All I'm saying is, when your Behringer stuff gives up the ghost at that really important gig, with the A+R people there from that local label. I told you so.