Jack Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Lastly, here is an Ashdown cab for cheaper than the Behringer. For a few pounds more you could have the Hartke or warwick as well. [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/cat.html?gf=4x10_bass_cabinets&oa=pra"]Look at me and don't buy rubbish![/url] And now, I promise I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 [quote name='ergon' post='89945' date='Nov 17 2007, 05:22 PM']Yeah but at the end of the day i will look back at me cube and be saying i'm sorry as it weeps whilst i play through a different combo of betrayal! plus complecated is fun [/quote] My work here is done .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergon Posted November 18, 2007 Author Share Posted November 18, 2007 (edited) [quote]Hey, just to clear up a few points here. First, whomever told you this is talking out of their behind. You can have cabs that handle 20 bazillion watts of power and use a 3 watt amp, wont make a damn bit of difference. Many people make blanket statements like 'underpowering is bad for cabs' and they think they're right, that they're doing you a favour but you need to be aware of all of the facts first. The thing is, if you drive an amp to the point of clipping (that horrible sound when its running flat-out) it can put out power much higher than its rated for, for a long period of time. Lets use an example rig of a head that puts out 100 watts and a cab that can handle 150 watts. This seems senible right? Plenty of margin for error. But its not really because 100 watts is nothing (personally I'd never gig with less that 300, but thats just me) so you turn your amp right up all the way. Lets see where this plan goes downhill. A head run into serious clipping can increase its output by 3db very easily. So now the 100 watt head is doing 200 watts continuously into a cabinet that can only handle 150. Result? Damaged speakers. And people will tell you that because this happened to them, you should never underpower a speaker cos it'll be bad. However, lets say your 100 watt head is feeding a cab that will take 1000. No damaged speakers even if you run the amp to 11 all night. You see now where these 'never underpower or you'll be eaten by goblins' people are going wrong? Conversely, a big amp that's run well within its limits can often be used safely on cabs even with lower power ratings. Lets use an amp that does 450 watts and a cab that will take 300 watts. Because the amp is being run clean and not clipped and because you're not using the amp to its full volume the cab will be fine. An upside is when you slap that low B and use the full power from your big amp even if the cab gets 900 watts for a millisecond (+3db remember?) it will be fine and just keep on rocking. 900 watts all night will most likely result in a short (but spectacular) fireworks display on stage, so be careful with that volume control. What's the point of all this? Power handling is one of the LEAST important factors to consider when buying a rig. Power output can be VERY important, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. As long as the amp is loud enough (clean, unclipped power) and the cab is somewhere in the same ballpark, everything should be fine. The onus is YOU the operator, if something sounds bad, or speaker cones are shooting at your ankles, something isn't right.[/quote] Ok, there's beeen a miss understanding, i didn't mean that if you used a amp lower than the rating of the cab it would blow up, of course it woun't!, i said it would be innefficient, also i never said that using and amp rated higher than the cab that it would definatly blow up even at low volumes! What i was saying is that to use a cab of a certain value of watts with minimal risk of it being damaged and without it being inefficient you would have to use the right value of amp. It obvious that underpowering an amp wont do any damage, but for using the speaker with maximum efficiency a 30watt amp just wont do! I'm pretty sure a man with over 30 years experience in industrial and electrical engineering who runs his own business where he works for and advises other people on how to design and build furnaces and gasifiers using very high voltage power circuits etc. is not going to be talking out of his behind when it comes to physics. Edited November 18, 2007 by ergon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewblack Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 [quote name='Jack' post='90058' date='Nov 18 2007, 12:44 AM'][url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/cat.html?gf=4x10_bass_cabinets&oa=pra"]Look at me and don't buy rubbish![/url][/quote] This doesn't surprise me. I said a while ago that as people realise how good and reliable and well made Behringer stuff is that they would be able to charge a more sensible price for it. As everyone here is always telling me - you get what you pay for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergon Posted November 18, 2007 Author Share Posted November 18, 2007 I've never seen a brand new ashdown so cheap!!! is this site legit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 [quote name='ergon' post='90342' date='Nov 18 2007, 04:41 PM']Ok, there's beeen a miss understanding, i didn't mean that if you used a amp lower than the rating of the cab it would blow up, of course it woun't!, i said it would be innefficient, also i never said that using and amp rated higher than the cab that it would definatly blow up even at low volumes! What i was saying is that to use a cab of a certain value of watts with minimal risk of it being damaged and without it being inefficient you would have to use the right value of amp. It obvious that underpowering an amp wont do any damage, but for using the speaker with maximum efficiency a 30watt amp just wont do! I'm pretty sure a man with over 30 years experience in industrial and electrical engineering who runs his own business where he works for and advises other people on how to design and build furnaces and gasifiers using very high voltage power circuits etc. is not going to be talking out of his behind when it comes to physics.[/quote] But does he play bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 [quote name='ergon' post='90538' date='Nov 18 2007, 10:03 PM']I've never seen a brand new ashdown so cheap!!! is this site legit?[/quote] Thomann? Sure .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergon Posted November 18, 2007 Author Share Posted November 18, 2007 [quote]But does he play bass?[/quote] No he plays piano, but tbh you don't need to be a bassist to be knowledgable in the field of amplification even for basses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 [quote name='ergon' post='90611' date='Nov 18 2007, 11:47 PM']No he plays piano, but tbh you don't need to be a bassist to be knowledgable in the field of amplification even for basses.[/quote] Ha ha yeah Ok ... Let us know how you get on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 [quote name='ergon' post='90342' date='Nov 18 2007, 04:41 PM']Ok, there's beeen a miss understanding, i didn't mean that if you used a amp lower than the rating of the cab it would blow up, of course it woun't!, i said it would be innefficient, also i never said that using and amp rated higher than the cab that it would definatly blow up even at low volumes! What i was saying is that to use a cab of a certain value of watts with minimal risk of it being damaged and without it being inefficient you would have to use the right value of amp. It obvious that underpowering an amp wont do any damage, but for using the speaker with maximum efficiency a 30watt amp just wont do! I'm pretty sure a man with over 30 years experience in industrial and electrical engineering who runs his own business where he works for and advises other people on how to design and build furnaces and gasifiers using very high voltage power circuits etc. is not going to be talking out of his behind when it comes to physics.[/quote] Well to be honest I started answering you and then moved on to just general info that people could use. What do you mean by it being 'inefficient'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 [quote name='ergon' post='90342' date='Nov 18 2007, 04:41 PM']Ok, there's beeen a miss understanding, i didn't mean that if you used a amp lower than the rating of the cab it would blow up, of course it woun't!, i said it would be innefficient, also i never said that using and amp rated higher than the cab that it would definatly blow up even at low volumes! What i was saying is that to use a cab of a certain value of watts with minimal risk of it being damaged and without it being inefficient you would have to use the right value of amp. It obvious that underpowering an amp wont do any damage, but for using the speaker with maximum efficiency a 30watt amp just wont do! I'm pretty sure a man with over 30 years experience in industrial and electrical engineering who runs his own business where he works for and advises other people on how to design and build furnaces and gasifiers using very high voltage power circuits etc. is not going to be talking out of his behind when it comes to physics.[/quote] How frequently does he drive a furnace into clipping, and has he done any Fourier analyses of the resulting waveform? To add a bit to what Jack said - if you drive an amp into clipping, the waveform you're pushing out changes from a sine wave to a square wave (the highrer the clipping, the more square it gets). This is a Bad Thing because: A square wave is actually the combination of all the odd-order harmonics of the fundamental frequency, and so will sound rather nasty A square wave transfers more energy than a sine wave of the same peak-to-peak amplitude (which is the actual limiting factor to the amplifier) And quite possibly it's less kind to speaker voice coils because they get cooled from being in motion, and a sine wave propels them gently from one extreme to the other, while a square wave smacks them all the way out and then all the way back in again, with a lot of time spent at maximum excursion with a lot of current going through them Incidentally, Roland seem to think that the Cube-100 puts out 100W (although they don't actually state that it's RMS). Where do you get the 28W figure from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 [quote name='tauzero' post='90932' date='Nov 19 2007, 04:46 PM']Incidentally, Roland seem to think that the Cube-100 puts out 100W (although they don't actually state that it's RMS). Where do you get the 28W figure from?[/quote] I'm assuming it's from the sticky about volume, where alex stated that given a nominal 1V input a 100W amp will produce a max output voltage of 28V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergon Posted November 19, 2007 Author Share Posted November 19, 2007 i got the 28w figure from the instruction manual, where it says 'RMS:28W' , there are apparently several different measurements of output, RMS is the only really consistant one when looking at the power capability of an amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 [quote name='ergon' post='90970' date='Nov 19 2007, 05:44 PM']i got the 28w figure from the instruction manual, where it says 'RMS:28W' , there are apparently several different measurements of output, RMS is the only really consistant one when looking at the power capability of an amplifier.[/quote] Nope, even RMS can be fudged. I'm fairly some of those 10kW car audio amps are measured at something ridiculous like 15kHz. I just loked up the manual, it definately says 100W. You sure you have the Cube 100 and not the 30? Even so the difference between 100 and 28W really isnt too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergon Posted November 19, 2007 Author Share Posted November 19, 2007 [quote name='Jack' post='90982' date='Nov 19 2007, 06:01 PM']Nope, even RMS can be fudged. I'm fairly some of those 10kW car audio amps are measured at something ridiculous like 15kHz. I just loked up the manual, it definately says 100W. You sure you have the Cube 100 and not the 30? Even so the difference between 100 and 28W really isnt too much.[/quote] The cube 100 is loads bigger size wise than the cube 30 and says cube 100 bass on the top and came in a box that said cube 100 and on the instruction manual says cube 100 so yes i am sure that i have the cube 100 and not the cube 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 Hmmmmm, looks like maybe you have the Cube 100 then, and not the Cube 30 as you first thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergon Posted November 19, 2007 Author Share Posted November 19, 2007 [quote]Hmmmmm, looks like maybe you have the Cube 100 then, and not the Cube 30 as you first thought.[/quote] obviously, thanks for setting me straight lol! the manual says the rated power output is 100w and the input is 28w but i can't find the RMS anymore which wil kinda destroy what i've been saying entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 (edited) Trust me, the output wattage is 100W. I've just looked again and the AC consumption was 28W, which might explain all of this. Anyway weve kind of drifted off-topic a little here. Have you decided what you want to do about your amp situation? Edited November 19, 2007 by Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergon Posted November 19, 2007 Author Share Posted November 19, 2007 the short answer, no. the long answer, no. i think i'm just gonna go with it and come crying for help when it all goes pear shaped if thats allright with everyone, yeah btw even if you say it's not allright i'm still gonna do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 Well if you really insist. But I will say one thing if you're set on Uli's products: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get the paper-coned Behringer cab and not the metal cones, they suck much less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 [quote name='ergon' post='91002' date='Nov 19 2007, 06:33 PM']the short answer, no. the long answer, no. i think i'm just gonna go with it and come crying for help when it all goes pear shaped if thats allright with everyone, yeah btw even if you say it's not allright i'm still gonna do it [/quote] Crackin' Well done. Oh and don't forget to ask us again if you want any advise on furnaces and gasifiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergon Posted November 19, 2007 Author Share Posted November 19, 2007 [quote]Oh and don't forget to ask us again if you want any advise on furnaces and gasifiers[/quote] OK point taken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewblack Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 [quote name='ergon' post='91140' date='Nov 20 2007, 12:01 AM']OK point taken [/quote] And if you happen to be in the west Country any time soon call in and see just how good the BA4X10 really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergon Posted November 19, 2007 Author Share Posted November 19, 2007 [quote]And if you happen to be in the west Country any time soon call in and see just how good the BA4X10 really is.[/quote] I might actaully find a dealer with one on display and have a try for myself to see how good it is sometime, i have to say if theres one thing this strange discussion has led me to believe is a peavey might be a good idea so long as i rip the label off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 See? Now youre getting it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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