Is my amp too big to hear...????

[Tegs]

Wondering whether anyone could shed some light on an issue I think I have (or may have conjoured up through paranoia....),
I play in a three piece blues based covers band and pretty much play in small pub rooms. I'm lead singer as well and we usually end up squashed into a corner. Thing is, I find that I can't hear what I'm playing clearly all the time. I'm using a Trace AH-500 with 4x10 and 1x15 underneath, a bit of a beast really and usually end up standing no more than 2 meters in front of it and find that, especially with higher strings that the sound kind of goes away, as if its going straight through me. Of course, then you start edging up the pots bit by bit....

I guess my question is, is it probable that although I cant hear myself that well, the rest of the pubs up the street can hear every note and every dropped note clear as a bell while I occasionally get a rumble through the floor on bottom E??!

Anyone else have this experience and indeed any advice?

Is it possible (horror of horrors ) that this rig is just too tasty for this type of gig?


Cheers all!

[Sean]

First rule of Bass Club: There is no such thing as too big a rig

You are too close. Point it at your head and get further from it. It's all down to wavelengths of bass sound, can placement relative to the walls around you and room acoustics.

Seriously though, you'll benefit from some foldback in the wedge monitor so you can hear what's coming out. I use a big rig in small venues and just get the soundguy to put a bit of me in the wedge mix and make sure you get a wireless (borrow one) so you can go to the back and hear yourself and make sure you're not killing everyone else in the mix.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Sean

[Tegs]

And the second rule of BassClub is.............

I had been considering a wireless just to see what happens out there. Being a small band we don't have a sound guy so I'm also responsible for the pa. I will try putting a bit in the monitors to see if it helps. Its often difficult to get further away from the amp in small venues!

[Mr. Foxen]

It is to do with boundary cancellation. The sound bouncing off the walls cancels the sound from the speaker, further away stuff gets mixed up enough it doesn't matter so much cause of all the other reflections going on.

[url="http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/CancellationMode.htm"]Some info[/url]

[OldGit]

Unplug the 1x15. Use it for height of the head and 4x10 but not as a speaker cab.

Worked for my mate when his sound was inaudible on stage but hugely loud everywhere else...

[Mr Fudge]

Agree with old git. where is your EQ?

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Tegs' post='804223' date='Apr 12 2010, 09:40 PM']And the second rule of BassClub is.............

I had been considering a wireless just to see what happens out there. Being a small band we don't have a sound guy so [u]I'm also responsible for the pa[/u]. I will try putting a bit in the monitors to see if it helps. Its often difficult to get further away from the amp in small venues![/quote]

You are the bass player ergo you are responsible for the PA... that's another rule of the Bass club!

[OldGit]

oh and +1 on getting a wireless...

[witterth]

[quote name='Tegs' post='804136' date='Apr 12 2010, 08:51 PM']Wondering whether anyone could shed some light on an issue I think I have (or may have conjoured up through paranoia....),
I play in a three piece blues based covers band and pretty much play in small pub rooms. I'm lead singer as well and we usually end up squashed into a corner. Thing is, I find that I can't hear what I'm playing clearly all the time. I'm using a Trace AH-500 with 4x10 and 1x15 underneath, a bit of a beast really and usually end up standing no more than 2 meters in front of it and find that, especially with higher strings that the sound kind of goes away, as if its going straight through me. Of course, then you start edging up the pots bit by bit....

I guess my question is, is it probable that although I cant hear myself that well, the rest of the pubs up the street can hear every note and every dropped note clear as a bell while I occasionally get a rumble through the floor on bottom E??!

Anyone else have this experience and indeed any advice?

Is it possible (horror of horrors ) that this rig is just too tasty for this type of gig?


Cheers all![/quote]
Its not a Musicman Bass with a dodgy G string is..?
A bit of "theme" on here recently!!

[Sean]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='804366' date='Apr 12 2010, 11:02 PM']You are the bass player ergo you are responsible for the PA... that's another rule of the Bass club! [/quote]
Or you should have a special Bassist's Mate sound guy that will get to know your sound and make sure you are sweet in the mix. Mine's called Goldilocks cos he gets it "just right". When the other sound guy does it for us he always get the bass wrong no matter what but he won't listen and doesn't understand how the instrument should sit in the mix.

I agree with OG, I disconnect my lower cab in small venues, works a treat.

[gafbass02]

I ran an Ah400SMX with two 4x10's and a bright box for years, and often found the same thing, all the advice above is good! That said since I traded it for a smaller, lighter, punchier and unbelievably, louder markbass rig ive never looked back! (or had issues hearing myself, or had to wobble it down wet fire escapes at 3am!)

[Beedster]

[quote name='OldGit' post='804321' date='Apr 12 2010, 10:36 PM']Unplug the 1x15. Use it for height of the head and 4x10 but not as a speaker cab. [/quote]

Yep

[JTUK]

Sounds like a very loud gig to me...

Ditch the 15"

[OldGit]

[quote name='gafbass02' post='804426' date='Apr 12 2010, 11:50 PM']I ran an Ah400SMX with two 4x10's and a bright box for years, and often found the same thing, all the advice above is good! That said since I traded it for a smaller, lighter, punchier and unbelievably, louder markbass rig ive never looked back! (or had issues hearing myself, or had to wobble it down wet fire escapes at 3am!)[/quote]

Yep
That would be my long term advice too.
But then I'm in the "Just can't hear Trace Elliot or Ashdown rigs" camp

[MythSte]

I mean, You could just buy a barefaced...

:ph34r:

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='MythSte' post='804596' date='Apr 13 2010, 09:43 AM']I mean, You could just buy a barefaced...

:ph34r:[/quote]

How dare you express a positive review of barefaced cabs. Round here, we call that hype, and we don't take too kindly to it.

S.P.

[MythSte]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='804603' date='Apr 13 2010, 09:52 AM']How dare you express a positive review of barefaced cabs. Round here, we call that hype, and we don't take too kindly to it.

S.P.[/quote]

Grab your torch and pitchforks!

I'm going to have to +1 the unplug or simply dont use the 15. It might be that your experiencing some phase issues between the two different driver sizes. It might even be worth rewiring the 15 the other way round, just to cancel out the possibility.

[Oscar South]

When playing small venues, regardless of size of my rig (usually a 4x10 setup) I use this formula which seems to work nicely:

Have the drummer play and turn my amp up until I can hear myself 'ok'ish over him (basically as low as I can get away with), then get the right level out front through the PA and have some bass put through the monitors. This usually gets a good balance of sound on stage vs sound out front.

Of course if you're not running subs you'll want more of your bass through the amp, but I've always found with subs its much better to DI your bass and put the bulk of foh volume through the PA.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Oscar South

[Conan]

I ran pretty much the same set-up for years (but with the AH250) and occasionally had this problem in certain rooms. I kept knocking up the volume but still couldn't hear myself properly. Meanwhile, buildings were collapsing across the street...).

My advice (in addition to what has already been said) would be have a look at your EQ settings. Too much bass? Feels great, but gets lost in the mix and ends up just booming around. Set your EQ much flatter, and add more mid-range. That way you can get audability and clarity with less actual volume.

Of course, I am basing this on my EQ settings - yours may already be fine!!

Edited April 13, 2010 by Conan

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Tegs' post='804136' date='Apr 12 2010, 08:51 PM']Is it possible (horror of horrors ) that this rig is just too tasty for this type of gig?[/quote]

Our guitarist has got one cable that he insists is too good for his guitars and makes them feed back.

He's not even joking.

[JTUK]

Nope..this can be why 15" are not a good option at times...

You can hardly hear it but the people in the 1st ten rows are going white...and their fillings are rattling around

The old Acoustic 360 bins used to be famous for this... which is why you had to have a 4x12 to give it reference and hear how loud you were. The fact that the sound is going all the way down the street points to this...

The bassd players equivalent of a Marshall stack

Wearing ear plugs for this...????

[51m0n]

The problem is more often than not room nodes and cab placement.

Try to make sure the cabs are as close to the back wall as possible (front face within 3ft of the back wall) or at least 8ft from the back wall. Otherwise you can get phase cancellation in the bass from the reflection off the back wall.

Having got that right you then need to look at where you are standing, room node cancellation where you stand means you cannot hear the bass whatever you try and do, you can take any cab away, play with your eq until you are blue in the face, you wont ever be happy standing there, move as little as 4ft and you are in bass bliss.

Other points to note, bass cabs dont 'throw', no cabs do, thats codswallop, what you are hearing is room nodes. All sound dies of by the inverse square law, but additive and subtractive phase cancellation from reflections off surfaces can lead you to believe that 'throw' is a real phenomina.

[Tegs]

Been away so just come back to all this ace advice, cheers everyone. I suspected to hear that the 15" could be part of the problem : ( and will reluctantly give it a go next gig cos the next venue is tiny! Been playing with the eq too and need to move away from my tendancy to up the low end (well, it is a Thunderbird!). Hoping to have some friendly ears at the next one so should get a better idea of what's going on.....

[chris_b]

I think it's time to loose the 115 AND the 410! There are 2 Aguilar DB112's in the for sale section that would sound much better with your amp.

[OldGit]

[quote name='51m0n' post='804662' date='Apr 13 2010, 10:56 AM']The problem is more often than not room nodes and cab placement.

Try to make sure the cabs are as close to the back wall as possible (front face within 3ft of the back wall) or at least 8ft from the back wall. Otherwise you can get phase cancellation in the bass from the reflection off the back wall.

Having got that right you then need to look at where you are standing, room node cancellation where you stand means you cannot hear the bass whatever you try and do, you can take any cab away, play with your eq until you are blue in the face, you wont ever be happy standing there, move as little as 4ft and you are in bass bliss.

Other points to note, bass cabs dont 'throw', no cabs do, thats codswallop, what you are hearing is room nodes. All sound dies of by the inverse square law, but additive and subtractive phase cancellation from reflections off surfaces can lead you to believe that 'throw' is a real phenomina.[/quote]


Ok but .. how do you know and what do you do?