TimR Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Take the McGurk effect test. Posted on another thread, I'm not taking the credit for it. http://youtu.be/G-lN8vWm3m0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1392568754' post='2370115'] Take the McGurk effect test. Posted on another thread, I'm not taking the credit for it. [media]http://youtu.be/G-lN8vWm3m0[/media] [/quote] Thanks for sharing Tim. It is a very interesting video...and I don't doubt it's validity & it proves the point you are making well, however very often [i]seeing is not believing[/i]. For example whilst undertaking the test...all you have to do is close your eyes and[i] really listen [/i]to remove any ambiguity. It's simply a case of trusting all of your senses... Edited February 16, 2014 by White Cloud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) One aspect of placebo research is the ethical implications. So, for example, it would be unlikely to be deemed ethical to conduct a clinical trial of a cancer drug versus a placebo because it would require the withdrawal of treatment from the placebo group. Fair enough, but I wonder if people would regard it as an ethical issue to run a trial that might prove to someone that, say, their choice of spending tens of thousands of pound on a Hifi system was a waste of money because they only 'thought' it sounded better, which might destroy the effect for them? Having said that, I recall reading somewhere that placebo effects can still be measured even when the person concerned knows they are in the placebo group, which seems very strange indeed. Edit: Found a link to that last point: http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/placebos-work-even-when-you-know-10-12-23/ Edited February 16, 2014 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 [quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392569789' post='2370145'] Thanks for sharing Tim. It is a very interesting video...and I don't doubt it's validity & it proves the point you are making well, however very often [i]seeing is not believing[/i]. For example whilst undertaking the test...all you have to do is close your eyes and[i] really listen [/i]to remove any ambiguity. It's simply a case of trusting all of your senses... [/quote] That's exactly my point. You HAVE to close your eyes otherwise your brain overrides the other information with the information provided by your eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1392570349' post='2370155'] That's exactly my point. You HAVE to close your eyes otherwise your brain overrides the other information with the information provided by your eyes. [/quote] To be honest you make a fair point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 When comparing an amplifier or bass you need to have someone else play the two while you look away and are not told which one is which. Otherwise you will always use as much information as is available to you. There's another link somewhere that demonstrates someone ab-ing two amps, one with no insides but made up to look like a tube amp with glowing tubes etc. The ab switch does nothing. The tube afficianodos all say it sounds better when the switch is 'switched' to the tube amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 It really is a very common effect that you see repeated time and time again in the music world, that 57 fender must be better than this '14 squire because, well, its a 57 fender so it will sound better. Violin players are just as bad, there was a test between stradavarius violins and new ones, and in blind tests, the stradivarius didn't do that well. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#.UwDymVfms04 However ask them afterwards which they would want to take home and I doubt it would be the best one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392570322' post='2370154'] One aspect of placebo research is the ethical implications. So, for example, it would be unlikely to be deemed ethical to conduct a clinical trial of a cancer drug versus a placebo because it would require the withdrawal of treatment from the placebo group. ... [/quote] I don't know but would expect that you wouldn't use a placebo in that instance. You'd keep one set on the tried and tested drugs and the other set on the new drug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Even that would have it's own ethical problems, e.g. risking the life of a patient by not using tried and tested drugs, but I was thinking about specific placebo trials, not an A/B comparison of two drugs. This is why medical trials and things like animal experiments have to be approved by ethics committees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392570322' post='2370154'] One aspect of placebo research is the ethical implications. So, for example, it would be unlikely to be deemed ethical to conduct a clinical trial of a cancer drug versus a placebo because it would require the withdrawal of treatment from the placebo group. Fair enough, but I wonder if people would regard it as an ethical issue to run a trial that might prove to someone that, say, their choice of spending tens of thousands of pound on a Hifi system was a waste of money because they only 'thought' it sounded better, which might destroy the effect for them? Having said that, I recall reading somewhere that placebo effects can still be measured even when the person concerned knows they are in the placebo group, which seems very strange indeed. Edit: Found a link to that last point: [url="http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/placebos-work-even-when-you-know-10-12-23/"]http://www.scientifi...-know-10-12-23/[/url] [/quote] Without wishing to plug it too often on here, you'll see quite a lot about that study in [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03wcchn"]http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b03wcchn[/url] tomorrow night Edited February 16, 2014 by Beedster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Will definitely have to watch it now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matski Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1392565948' post='2370069'] It's pretty much accepted that humans rely on our sight more than any other sense. Our brain will override anything we hear, smell, feel, taste in favour of what we see. [/quote] Interesting. For many years I worked in the studio departments of advertising agencies, usually assisting Art Directors (in reality actually doing THEIR work for them). Many times I had the comment: "we're almost there with the layout but can you do me a favour and just move the headline/logo/image 1mm to the left/right/up/down" Usually I did nothing of the sort, just printed out the exact same layout 5 minutes later and showed it to whoever requested the change - without fail these 'revised' layouts were ALWAYS said to be much better and just right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 That's a control issue. It happens in every industry. I'll give my boss a perfect excel spreadsheet. He'll look over it and ask for changes. The changes make absolutely no difference except they say to me he is the boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Placebo in bass guitars? Well, I always say that so many people are playing Fenders these days because so many people are playing Fenders...who are being watched by future Fender players.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) Isn't the placebo effect where a player is given a cheap Chinese copy and told it's a '63 Fender and plays better with it because they believe it's a real Fender. EDIT: For gender equality Edited February 20, 2014 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1392928985' post='2374436'] Isn't the placebo effect where [u]a player[/u] is given a cheap Chinese copy and told it's a '63 Fender and plays better with it because [u]he [/u]believes it's a real Fender. [/quote] Or she! Careful, there are lots of great female players here. Well, never mind chinese fare...some consider MIM Fenders to be cheap copies when compared to the golden oldies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 [quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392929368' post='2374444'] Or she! Careful, there are lots of great female players here. Well, never mind chinese fare...some consider MIM Fenders to be cheap copies when compared to the golden oldies [/quote] Edited I think the point is the subject is being fooled into thinking they're playing a great instrument, when they're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee4 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 [quote name='Machines' timestamp='1194967244' post='87903'] This is becoming a very intriguing thread.. it's making me ponder whether all the hype about differing tonewoods is utter nonsense or just over exaggerated... [/quote] IMO,as we play [i]electric [/i]instruments,body and neck timbers make little or no difference to the tone we hear,as it is created by magnets,wire and electricity. The first recording I made on bass was on a Marlin ply bodied bass,and it sounded fine.I've played a Status bass into a valve pre amp then into a desk and got a warm,thuddy sound by manipulating the tone controls,not by having species X as the body wood. As people on BC have improved sub £100 basses by swapping the pups,I would personally only be concerned with the wood on a bass from a weight and/or aesthetics view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 [quote name='lee4' timestamp='1392930191' post='2374460'] IMO,as we play [i]electric [/i]instruments,body and neck timbers make little or no difference to the tone we hear,as it is created by magnets,wire and electricity. [/quote] Contentious, but interesting, opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebuckets Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Another quality thread Chris I watched a you tube video of someone playing a bb1024x vs a bb2024x. I couldn't here any difference on a blind listen but when I watched I convinced myself the 2024 was better and I now want to sell an organ to buy your yammie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzyvee Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 [quote name='Alien' timestamp='1194957388' post='87826'] One of my basses has a switch on it that's not wired to anything (never got round to it), but most people believe they can hear a difference when I flick it to a different position! Andy [/quote] Snap I had the same thing on one of my basses I just used to tell people that I had no idea what it specifically does but it is supposed to sweeten the sound. I don't have it on the bass anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0 Am I the only one who thinks he's saying 'f*ck*?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 [quote name='jazzyvee' timestamp='1395226896' post='2399875'] Snap I had the same thing on one of my basses I just used to tell people that I had no idea what it specifically does but it is supposed to sweeten the sound. I don't have it on the bass anymore. [/quote] I demo'd a blind test to the band of between a Precision with a model a Jazz with a model J (basically the same pickup) solo'd and the bridge pickup solo'd again a model J. While you, me and any one else on the forum would have noticed the difference. They both couldn't hear a discerning difference, I believe that's because they plain don't care. If they did care I'm sure they'd find a difference, so the effect of placebos only can really work on those that care, or want yo believe they work (or indeed will make stuff sound better) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1395227655' post='2399884'] While you, me and any one else on the forum would have noticed the difference. They both couldn't hear a discerning difference, I believe that's because they plain don't care. [/quote] Most non-bass players can't tell the difference between a burpy Jazz tone and a badger farting in a biscuit tin. Edited March 19, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ticktock Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Farty badger with biscuit tin reverb. THAT is the tone I am (not) after. I bet those pups are very expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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