Bass guitars and placebo effects

[Beedster]

Hi all
I have for a few years been involved in researching the placebo effect. My work has examined the degree to which people behave differently when they believe they have ingested a certain phsyiologicall or psycho-active substance, even if that substance is an inert placebo. I've recently been contacted by a colleague asking me whether I felt my research could contribute to the study of authenticity in history/heritage, that is, whether something has to be real for it to have a positive effect on a person viewing, touching or experiencing it (for example, the Turin Shroud and similar religious/historical objects). We've just had a really interesting chat, and, guess what, the topic of bass guitars, and specifically relics, came up . I mentioned that my Fender Custom Shop relic always felt fake and that I always felt a little fake playing it, whereas my '73 Precision just oozes mojo and authenticity and that I feel somehow more authentic when I play it. I wondered whether I would have felt differently had I been told or believed that the FCS relic was actually original? Jane, my colleague, talked in terms of authenticity putting us in touch with the past etc. I'm keen to explore this further and wondered if any of you guys have any ideas, experiences or opinions?
Chris

[warwickhunt]

Certainly interesting but it's a bit deep for me this early in the morning

When I've had my mid morning shot of caffeine I should be able to reconsider this

[misrule]

Maybe you could set up an experiment in a shop -- put a relic on display with an enormous price tag then ask potential buyers how much they think it's worth, before and after you reveal its true status.

That's not very exciting but there must be a great psychological test you could run on the subject. Fascinating stuff

Cheers

Mark

[Lfalex v1.1]

If it feels good (in your hands), plays well, sounds good (to you) and generally does what you'd want it to, I'd say whatever you're playing is a good instrument.

I own two similar basses; A 2004 MIA s1 Jazz in Translucent Sunset Orang over Ash
A 2006 Squier 70's VM Jazz with a BadAss II and black (brass) control knobs

One cost 3.5 times the amount the other did. I find I play the Squier more [i]adventurously[/i] as I subconciously recognise it as being the cheaper instrument (though not necessarily worse for it!) Consequently, I probably wring more from the Squier than the Fender. The Squier does sound more aggressive, and lends itself better to being thrashed, though...

I wouldn't have said that your feelings on genuine/relic/NOS are quite as prevalent as the issues that some people have over instrument/ equipment manufacturers and costs;

[i]It's made by xxxx, therefore my own assumptions will necessarily inflate my opinion of said item when compared to another "lesser" or "lesser known" brand[/i]

The converse is true, also. How many players wouldn't touch a cheap instrument, just because they assume it not to be worthwhile? Perhaps they missed a real gem?

I'll admit that I'm not partial to either mojo'd instruments, relics, re-issues or NOS. I'd rather have owned an instrument from new and have it age gracefully in my ownership! So perhaps I'm carrying some bias if my own...

I know that my instruments have (generally) only ever belonged to me, and feel comfortable with them as a result...

[cheddatom]

I love the placebo effect, and think about it quite a bit, and try to use it on myself. My boss has been taking this herbal remedy for a month, to stop her migraines. Before, she "needed" some extra strong one a day pills to stop the migraines, now she just takes a placebo. I told her that it's a placebo, but not to think about it too much. She wasn't interested anyway, just said "well, it works for me!".

I have a really nice cheapo bass which was my first 6 string. I always thought I would invest in a really nice, more expensive bass when I could afford. When I could afford, I bought a very nice schecter, but, it doesn't play any better! For the first month I had it, I was raving on about how much better it was to play and how it was worth the money (it was though) etc, but, that was just the effect of having spent a lot of money on it. Once that effect wore off, I realised it just sounded a bit better, and looked nicer. Maybe a bit of the same effect with your basses?

[Machines]

I think another factor when buying an instrument is how it'll be perceived by others. Some people (possibly including myself) wouldn't want to be on stage with some no-name bass that no-one has heard of or is perceived to be rubbish. It's the Skoda effect..

[neepheid]

I dunno about basses (which in my opinion should always be shiny and well looked after - I hate "relicing" and I cringe every time I see the word "mojo" before substituting it with "been used to play cricket with and hammer in the stumps"), but when I drink alcohol-free lager (or notbeer as I call it) - Cobra in particular because it's quite convincing in the taste department, I still *think* I have a beer buzz and I still wonder if I'm ok to drive

[Alien]

One of my basses has a switch on it that's not wired to anything (never got round to it), but most people believe they can hear a difference when I flick it to a different position!

Andy

[Weird War]

Interesting thread, Chris. It's well-established that the placebo effect is very, very powerful in all sorts of fields. So why should it be different with basses? When you add in peer expectation/pressure (as Machines mentioned) and general GAS consumerism (cf. everyone on this forum ), I think there's little doubt that people will see/hear what they want in their basses to a large extent. You'd need a proper experiment to verify this, of course - any basscentric psychology post-grads out there??

I'm off to play my Marlin Sidewinder...

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='Alien' post='87826' date='Nov 13 2007, 12:36 PM']One of my basses has a switch on it that's not wired to anything (never got round to it), but most people believe they can hear a difference when I flick it to a different position!

Andy[/quote]
Ah yes - A "producer" Switch

[Cantdosleepy]

How about the whole GAS cycle?

I'm happy with my setup now that I have a YYYYYY.

Ooh, no, I need a XXXXXX.

I'm happy with my setup now that I have a XXXXX.

Ooh, no, I need a GGGGGG.

etc etc etc

The GAS item in question is often entirely arbitrary. The question is, is it a placebo (in that it cures GAS even though it might not be making the sound you're after) or is the fact that it cures the GAS evidence that it is not a placebo. Another way to phrase that question is; do I appease my GAS to get a better sound, or do I appease my GAS simply to appease my GAS?

[P-T-P]

I can totally relate to the "feeling fake" thing. Have had a number of vintage RI basses and as amazing as they were I always felt something missing. One had been refinished in a gorgeous gold, but because the refin wasn't an exact match for either of the two Fender golds, it bothered me no end.

On the placebo front, I run the PA for the band and our guitarist always, without fail, barks a request for some (pretentious) alteration to the tone on his vocal mic - "bit more upper mids" kinda thing. Unless there is something clearly wrong, I usually just pretend to twiddle a control and wait for him to say, "Yeah that's better." Works every time, even though about a year ago I told him that's what I do most of the time lol

[cheddatom]

Do I have GAS, or do I yearn for a tone I can hear in my head, but not from my amp(for now)?

Personally, I have the latter, and won't be purchasing anything for a long time :-)

Quite often I get asked by the other band mates to change something in a mix, or a master, or on a photo. I just mess with a control a bit, sometimes I even bother to change it to how they want it! then I just change it back, or stop fiddling with the control, and ask if they're happy. I've not been caught yet!

[Musky]

Walter Benjamin had a few interesting things to say about authenticity, although he was looking at art in the age of mechanical reproduction. He pointed out that the aura of a work of art adhered not to the artifact itself but external factors which are attached to it by the viewer - it's entirely cultural. So just as Marcel Duchamp's ready-mades (mass produced objects sold as art) became 'art' once signed by the artist, the same principle can be attached to any mass produced object - in this case by sticking the word Fender on the headstock (or at least a '73 S/N).

How would you feel about your '73 if you were to discover it was a cleverly made fake? Probably a bit p*ssed off that you've paid over the odds for it (which is an indication of the power relationships tied up with authenticity), but would it change it's usefulness to you or the value of any use you've already had from it?

In the art world there are plenty of people who have discovered their works are fakes - placebos if you like - but I'd suggest any benefical effects they felt while thinking it was genuine were real. The only negative side to discovering the fake was entirely economic.

Interestingly Benjamin also predicted the rise in importance of nostalgia - if he'd been into guitars maybe he would have predicted the Relic series as well.

[Deep Thought]

[quote name='Alien' post='87826' date='Nov 13 2007, 12:36 PM']One of my basses has a switch on it that's not wired to anything (never got round to it), but most people believe they can hear a difference when I flick it to a different position!

Andy[/quote]

Ashdown amps have that-it's called a Subharmonic Generator

[Cantdosleepy]

[quote name='Musky' post='87860' date='Nov 13 2007, 02:03 PM']Walter Benjamin had a few interesting things to say about authenticity, although he was looking at art in the age of mechanical reproduction. He pointed out that the aura of a work of art adhered not to the artifact itself but external factors which are attached to it by the viewer - it's entirely cultural. So just as Marcel Duchamp's ready-mades (mass produced objects sold as art) became 'art' once signed by the artist, the same principle can be attached to any mass produced object - in this case by sticking the word Fender on the headstock (or at least a '73 S/N).

How would you feel about your '73 if you were to discover it was a cleverly made fake? Probably a bit p*ssed off that you've paid over the odds for it (which is an indication of the power relationships tied up with authenticity), but would it change it's usefulness to you or the value of any use you've already had from it?

In the art world there are plenty of people who have discovered their works are fakes - placebos if you like - but I'd suggest any benefical effects they felt while thinking it was genuine were real. The only negative side to discovering the fake was entirely economic.

Interestingly Benjamin also predicted the rise in importance of nostalgia - if he'd been into guitars maybe he would have predicted the Relic series as well. [/quote]

Word.

Imagine someone who has played bass for a couple of months. S/He finds an old bass in his/her dad's attic. It's battered and the action is almost unplayably high and it sounds weirdly muffled and someone has scratched the word 'funk' in blue ink into the heel of the neck. S/He thinks 'This isn't as good as my peavey Milestone' and puts it back. A bass buff would have almost had a heart attack to even see the object. It's not an intrinsic playability of the instrument that they disagree on, it's the ephemera surrounding it.

[fleamail]

The placebo effect is great when it comes to the old argument about types of wood used to make instruments. Many people argue that they can hear differences between maple and rosewood boards or alder and ash bodies. I've performed a blind test once to a friend of mine, I was supposed to play my Stingray which has a maple board and then his which has a rosewood. I played mine twice and he went like " Here, here you can clearly hear that rosewood has less trebble!!"

[Machines]

This is becoming a very intriguing thread.. it's making me ponder whether all the hype about differing tonewoods is utter nonsense or just over exaggerated...

[Paul Cooke]

[quote name='neepheid' post='87768' date='Nov 13 2007, 10:00 AM']but when I drink alcohol-free lager (or notbeer as I call it) - Cobra in particular because it's quite convincing in the taste department, I still *think* I have a beer buzz and I still wonder if I'm ok to drive [/quote]

which Cobra lager??? they make several different types under the Cobra label and only one of them is alcohol free... what colour bottle is it in?

[metalmaniac]

Me and my guitarist once played a gig with pretty cheap (unnamed brand) guitars we had purchased the day before at a crappy trader.
Upon finishing the gig a couple of young fans asked to play on my bass, and of course I agreed. When asked how much the bass was, I replied, sarcastically, "Very Expensive".
The younguns proceeded to pour praise on how this was so much better than their Big Brand Basses and wish they could afford basses like the bass in question.

Placebo effect.. me thinks.. however subject matter were 14-15 year olds.. nevertheless, I see 40 year olds act like children in the face of vintage basses.

I did enlighten them later to the actual price of the bass.. at which they applauded my haggling and bargain finding skills.



On a more personal view, one of the best basses I ever had the pleasure of owning was a very old Encore P-Bass, and i've never found a Fender or other that i've been as fond of.

[neepheid]

[quote name='Paul Cooke' post='87921' date='Nov 13 2007, 03:47 PM']which Cobra lager??? they make several different types under the Cobra label and only one of them is alcohol free... what colour bottle is it in?[/quote]

Green bottle, silver label if memory serves. It's got 0.0% proudly on the front.

[jwbassman]

[quote name='Weird War' post='87837' date='Nov 13 2007, 02:00 PM']I'm off to play my Marlin Sidewinder... [/quote]


My first babysteps on bass were on a borrowed Marlin - from what I remember it wasn't very good, but it got me started

Not adding much to the debate with that useless bit of trivia but there you go...

However it might introduce something along the lines of the effect of Time on Perception though

[warwickhunt]

Someone mentioned PA and placebo? Not a true placebo effect but worth recounting anyway.

I arrived late to a gig due to prior committment, which the band knew about; not one single speaker was positioned and not one mic' stand erected (not only am I the bassist but I set-up and operate the whole PA as no-one has figured out after 15 years what plugs in where). I spat my dummy out! After I'd plugged in the FOH I thought 'scr*w the monitors' and simply ran cables along toward them ([b]but didn't plug in[/b]). The singer started his usual soundcheck FOH routine; bit less top (I rolled off a touch of mid), bit more bass (I rolled off a touch as it was going to be a waste of power in this particular room), can you do something with the mids (yeh right, what the feck do you know) GREAT just right! He then asked for a bit more in the monitors... I duly turned up the appropriate dial; yep, touch more, yeh that's great! Oh how I chuckled to myself.

I have a particularly stubborn streak so I left the monitors unplugged for the next 6-7 weeks, not a soul noticed the lack of monitors. HOWEVER, the singer commented on the fact that we seemed to be getting a better sound these days.

We were packing the gear away after a gig when the guitarist happened to comment that the monitors weren't plugged in. I feigned ignorance and said that I hadn't plugged them in, I assumed someone else was doing it. Suddenly the consensus was that the sound had been cr*p tonight and not a patch on the last dozen gigs. The devil in me had to then ask who had been plugging in the monitors since that gig where I was late...

[s_u_y_*]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='87936' date='Nov 13 2007, 04:22 PM']Someone mentioned PA and placebo? Not a true placebo effect but worth recounting anyway.

I arrived late to a gig due to prior committment, which the band knew about; not one single speaker was positioned and not one mic' stand erected (not only am I the bassist but I set-up and operate the whole PA as no-one has figured out after 15 years what plugs in where). I spat my dummy out! After I'd plugged in the FOH I thought 'scr*w the monitors' and simply ran cables along toward them ([b]but didn't plug in[/b]). The singer started his usual soundcheck FOH routine; bit less top (I rolled off a touch of mid), bit more bass (I rolled off a touch as it was going to be a waste of power in this particular room), can you do something with the mids (yeh right, what the feck do you know) GREAT just right! He then asked for a bit more in the monitors... I duly turned up the appropriate dial; yep, touch more, yeh that's great! Oh how I chuckled to myself.

I have a particularly stubborn streak so I left the monitors unplugged for the next 6-7 weeks, not a soul noticed the lack of monitors. HOWEVER, the singer commented on the fact that we seemed to be getting a better sound these days.

We were packing the gear away after a gig when the guitarist happened to comment that the monitors weren't plugged in. I feigned ignorance and said that I hadn't plugged them in, I assumed someone else was doing it. Suddenly the consensus was that the sound had been cr*p tonight and not a patch on the last dozen gigs. The devil in me had to then ask who had been plugging in the monitors since that gig where I was late...[/quote]

lol... That's funny! But then again, I wonder if I would have fallen for that.

[cheddatom]

I would have thought that most singers would have noticed if they didn't have a monitor. Most amusing story!