Bass guitars and placebo effects

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='87945' date='Nov 13 2007, 04:42 PM']I would have thought that most singers would have noticed if they didn't have a monitor. Most amusing story![/quote]

Angle the FOH speakers in a degree or two more than normal and you get more on stage (when I say stage I'm talking about the 'Dog and Duck' to 150 punters) especially as you don't have the monitors scr*wing things up

[metalmaniac]

I had a techie try that on me... he didnt fool my immense ear!!!

[Dread Bass]

Yeah there is a guy on the Alembic forum who has a swith on his bass that does nothing so every time someone asks for a more Fender like tone he flicks that. says it works every time

[Happy Jack]

Good thread.

I collect vintage Hofners (all 60's bar two from the 50's and a '71), plus a few other bits & bobs. I only own one modern bass, and that's a 2006 re-issue of the 1963 McCartney bass.

Every time I pick up one of my 45-year-old basses I get a real sense of other musicians who have owned that bass before me hovering in the background, and no - I'm not the mystic type! It's just a really nice, cool vibe and a real confidence-booster to a newbie like me who has only been playing for two years.

Do my basses "sound" vintage? Well, I play them all absolutely straight, no effects at all, using whatever backline is provided by the house band. I routinely get loads of positive comments about how great they sound, and of course the age & style lends itself to simple bass-lines ... the sort I can play!

When I play my 2006 re-issue V.63 it is obviously not an old bass so I don't have the invisible support of ghostly bass players from the past ( ) but it still sounds vintage, and my playing is exactly the same as on a 1959 Hofner 500/5.

I started typing this thinking I was going to end up saying that the placebo effect was a positive force in my playing ... erm ... is that what I'm saying, Beedster?

[bassninja]

Er...its a bit weird to be discussing this on the Basschat board, but as well as a lowdown funkin' basspig, I'm an occupational therapist working in psychiatric intensive care. Part of what I am interested in is object relations theory (what things 'mean' to an individual, rather than what they appear to be to others).

So a 'forest' to me means something quite specific to me, but to so someone living in the black forest of southern Germany (for example) it has a whole other set of associations relative to that particular culture, upbringing of the individual, local traditional mythology etc. A bit like semantics is viewed by linguists.

So my dirty, knackered '73 Precision with all the 'mojo', dripping off it (as you correctly call it) will not feel like its equivalent from the FCS, because I have a relationship with it, and it has been with me for the best part of 20 years, and we have a shared [i]history[/i].

I can tell you where & when most of the dings, gouges and chips came from on my old faithful. With a relic'd instrument, I'm aware its a quality piece of kit, but one that has been made in a calculated fashion by a highly skilled luthier, but one who is recklessly weilding a chisel or a bit of chain/sandpaper for purposes other than the creation of 'mojo'.

It feels fake, maybe because you know its fake, that's why I've never really found them that interesting.

Here's a more coherent link, if you can face it...

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_relations"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_relations[/url]

[Shaggy]

Good thread!
Placebo effect? Dunno. I've only ever bought one brand new bass - an Ibanez Artist Musician - and didn't bond with it at all. I like old basses (/cars/motorbikes), the way they sound, their quirkiness, the patina of use on a well-looked after (ie; not shagged) instrument. Plus a sensibly modded old bass is always more interesting than a bog-standard one.
Until very recently I thought the whole relic-ing thing total crap. Then last week I saw the Joe Strummer signature Fender Telecaster (guit*r) in my local guitar shop. Basically looks like its been painted with grey primer, given to a blind-folded gorilla with a power-sander, then left out in the rain for a month. It is a thing of utter presence and beauty. You could hang it in the Tate with the simple title "Rock n' Roll" underneath. Yes, it's artifice, but rock music has been self-parody ever since Elvis made it big.
As for the "Skoda" effect, the only guy not giving a toss about the label on the headstock is probably some 80-year old blues player somewhere in New Orleans. As for me, going to check out that Wal in the For Sale forum again.................

Edited November 13, 2007 by Shaggy

[Alun]

This thread reminds me of a post on another forum where someone was asking for diagrams to make a pedal true bypass until someone pointed out that it already was

[Aussiephoenix]

hmmmm deep thread...

In the comparing basses department, in some ways recently I've changed my mind on something.

a friend has a squier 5 string and 2 things, I've always been of the opinion that 1 - Squier Sux, 2 - on ANY fender/squier bass the 5th was bound to be crap...

I couldnt believe what I was feeling/hearing when I tried it out... it was a solid instrument, nice tight B...

Still, my sadowsky kicks its butt...
Placebo or not, in my twisted little world it feels good.

[Paul Cooke]

[quote name='Aussiephoenix' post='88154' date='Nov 13 2007, 11:25 PM']hmmmm deep thread...

In the comparing basses department, in some ways recently I've changed my mind on something.

a friend has a squier 5 string and 2 things, I've always been of the opinion that 1 - Squier Sux, 2 - on ANY fender/squier bass the 5th was bound to be crap...

I couldnt believe what I was feeling/hearing when I tried it out... it was a solid instrument, nice tight B...

Still, my sadowsky kicks its butt...
Placebo or not, in my twisted little world it feels good. [/quote]

If you weren't so far away... I'd let you have a go on my Squier VMJ... that might open your eyes further...

If you get a chance... try one...

[silverfoxnik]

Great thread Chris! Haven't seen you around much lately and you've come up with a blinder!

Well, it's a very interesting question and it does make me wonder about what I like or value in the basses I've got now or had over the years.. And whether it's me investing them with qualities I [i]think[/i] they have or [i]want[/i] them to have, as opposed to the basses actually having those qualities in them???

A few years ago I bought a JV series P Bass Squier off Ebay for £300. The seller's photos were pretty poor so I took a punt and hoped for the best. When it arrived, it was in absolutely immaculate, pristine, never been played condition and I was completely stunned. So, I phoned the guy up and he told me that when the JV Series were first issued, he bought 2 P-Basses and 2 J-Basses and kept them under his bed... For 23 years.. So, there I was with this cool bass that sounded great, looked wonderful and I was feeling pretty pleased with myself..especially as the JV series was becoming more sought after. Trouble was, I never played it.. So for 18 months it just sat there in it's case looking wonderful but never used.. And that's because I was too scared of damaging it. So I put it back on Ebay with some very clear photos and I sold it to a collector and virtually doubled my money

Around the same time, I bought a 1984 BC Rich Eagle on Ebay, also for £300. It duly arrived from the States looking like it had been very well gigged, it had plenty of battle scars and has plenty of 'mojo' and 'authenticity' about it.. I still have it, love the sound of it and wouldn't dream of selling it.. But the reason I kept the BC Rich, yet sold the Squier on is because the BC Rich is comfortable to use, I'm relaxed when I play it and so it brings out the best in me as a musician. It's not because the BC Rich has more mojo or authenticity than the Squier - they both had that in abundance to me - it's because it suits me better as a musician...

Picking up another point made, I never think of the other people who've owned a bass before me either.. If a bass is old and sounds good (to my ears), then I believe it's because the quality of the workmanship, construction and parts (especially woods and pick ups) was superior at the time it was built to the production values in present day basses. And of course, I realise that might be a completely false assumption on my part..

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I agree that owning older, vintage objects like basses, does cast a certain spell on us by putting us in touch with the past..And because we hold nostalgic views, feelings , perceptions etc about the past in relation to the present (especially with music which is so emotive anyway), we subconsciously give those vintage objects more value and importance..

And though I'm as guilty of that as the next person, I don't think that it's always about the perceived value of older authentic instruments... For example, I had a '66 Jazz that I sold without a moments thought some years ago simply because I didn't like it..

Sorry for rambling on a bit... but it's a very thought provoking thread !

[Musky]

Just a thought Chris, but isn't the Turin Shroud actually a fake, dated to the middle ages? Surely any benefit that people get from it has to be down to a placebo effect.

[gilmour]

[quote name='Paul Cooke' post='87921' date='Nov 13 2007, 03:47 PM']which Cobra lager??? they make several different types under the Cobra label and only one of them is alcohol free... what colour bottle is it in?[/quote]

Not entirley on topic, but almost; Cobra beer used to be called Panther Beer, but it didn't sell, so they changed the name to Cobra, and sales rocketed. Ex-Pats said that they could remember Cobra from before the war (which they couldn;t because it didn't exist)!

[ARGH]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='87840' date='Nov 13 2007, 01:17 PM']Ah yes - A "producer" Switch[/quote]

You mean a DDA filter























(Dosent do anything....)

[NJW]

I used to play a rackmounted head, and in the rack I had a Korg DTR1000.

Our guitarist, who is tone obsessed and has an (admittedly great) obsessive pedalboard kept nipping at my that I was playing through the tuner before my amp and because it wasn't true bypass it was ruining my tone. I said "fair enough, but to be honest this amp isn't that great in the first place... I don't think it makes a significant difference" but to humour him I plugged into the rear input of the tuner and told him I had taken it out of the chain.

Immediately he was grinning and finally exclaimed "THATS THE BASS TONE MAN! THATS IT! WE GOT IT!"...

[Machines]

People certainly do obsess about things that aren't really there.. did you tell him NJW ?

[OldGit]

[quote name='gilmour' post='88323' date='Nov 14 2007, 11:40 AM']Not entirley on topic, but almost; Cobra beer used to be called Panther Beer, but it didn't sell, so they changed the name to Cobra, and sales rocketed. Ex-Pats said that they could remember Cobra from before the war (which they couldn;t because it didn't exist)![/quote]
Ah yes like Werther's orginals

[NJW]

[quote name='Machines' post='92534' date='Nov 22 2007, 08:27 AM']People certainly do obsess about things that aren't really there.. did you tell him NJW ?[/quote]

Nah... I couldn't be bothered with the agro! haha...

Fair enough, I can admit there is definitely a tone difference when using non-bypass pedals... but playing an amp into a crappy cab in a practise room isn't going to magically turn into this religious bass experience as a result of going true-bypass.

[Beedster]

Awesome responses guys
I sent the link of this thread to my colleague and she expressed some surprise at just how intelligent and philosophical us bass players are!
There's some great food for thought above. One thing that stands out is that g*it*rists and singers seem to be somewhat placebo-responsive. One og the objections raised in medicine to the legitimacy of the placebo effect is that, if it can be treated with a placebo, it probably didn't exist in the first place (read between the lines of that my 6-string playing Marshall-stack-turned-up-to-11 friends). Now, this is probably not the whole story, but when I reported some of your observations at a seminar this week, there were a few hearty laughs at the idea of a DDA switch.
Fundamentally, I think the main mechanism of the placebo effects we see in everyday life is a reduction in tension/anxiety when we believe that we have got our own way, be that via our GP handing out some entirely unnecessary (and likely pharmacologically ineffective if prescribed for a viral infection) antibiotics, or by the sound guy shrugging his shoulders and saying "if that's what you think will make it sound better" as he rotates the DDA control clockwise (guitarists always want clockwise)!
However, I think part of it is voluntary, we want to be placeboed! I'm a sucker for it all of the time: Why is it, for example, that, although deep down I KNOW it's a better bass, I sold my MIJ '62 reissue this week and kept my MIA '73? It's because I believe - more correctly I CHOOSE to believe - that my MIA is a better bass because or its history etc, and that belief is very powerful. Why is it that I resented my Fender Custom Shop Jaco relic to the point that I pretty much wouldn't take it out of its case after a while, whilst I stood open-mouthed and in an almost spiritual trance when Mike introduced me to his '68 fretless at the bash earlier this year?
I studied electronic music technology in the 80's, and I always felt uncomfortable around synths, which in that situation in that era was analogous to being a hydrophobic fish or an albatross with a fear of flying. It took me years to work out that this was because of the lack of authenticity in the sounds that they were being used to create. In the '70's, dudes with long hair and beards were using synths to create a whole new range of sound ideas. However, in the '80's, blokes with pony tails were using them to economise on recording costs, and I'm sure that the derogatory meaning of the word 'synthetic' developed at that time In the 70's it was used to refer to something new, usually in textile terms, after the 80's it seemed to mean 'fake'). For me, my longing for a '73 Precision came out of some belief that in some way a bass made in the '70s was more real and less synthetic, which is simply not the case. It's just older and more expensive. It's just a placebo effect, but it still works.
And that's the thing, despite all the stuff above that perhaps implies that guitarists and singers might be prats because the engineer moved a DDA slider and it solved the problem, if it made them feel better, it probably did solve a problem, perhaps just not the one they thought it was solving!

[Cantdosleepy]

[quote name='Beedster' post='93746' date='Nov 24 2007, 01:16 PM']One thing that stands out is that g*it*rists and singers seem to be somewhat placebo-responsive.[/quote]

You also have to bear in mind that those two groups tend to be the two groups that get a beating here in most categories. In the same way that any story about massive idiocy always happened 'in America' (and in America those same anecdotes exist but are attributed to Mexico or Canada) guitarists are kind of this forum's 'similar other'.

[cheddatom]

Yeh, I don't think it's specific to anyone really. Certain people seem more receptive to the placebo effect, but, I find it hard to see how there could any be any objective test to see if some people are more receptive than others.

If you had two depressed people, and you gave the singer some sugar tablets and he felt ok, and gave the bassist a brand new (what's in fashion these days?) Wal and he didn't feel much better, or he felt 100 times better, you couldn't really make a judgement either way.

I don't know if i'm making sense, but i'd like to know if there are any tests/studies that have been or can be done to see the responsiveness of people to the placebo effect, and whether the results of this would suggest different responses from different "groups" of people.

[Beedster]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='94460' date='Nov 26 2007, 11:52 AM']I don't know if i'm making sense, but i'd like to know if there are any tests/studies that have been or can be done to see the responsiveness of people to the placebo effect, and whether the results of this would suggest different responses from different "groups" of people.[/quote]

Thousands, drug companies use them all the time to inflate the effects observed in clinical trials of new drugs. Basically, you give someone a placebo and tell them it's the real thing. If that person responds to the placebo as they would be expected to respond to the real thing, you chuck them out of the drug trial so as to make the drug look more powerful than it really is (after all, it's no good having pesky placebo responders in there muddying the waters. Oh, and reducing profits).
I was of course only joking about guitarists and singers, I made it pretty clear that I'm about the most placebo responsive person I know. I can't sing and wouldn't be seen dead with more than 4 strings!
Chris

[cheddatom]

So in the case of these drug companies - How do they know that the real responders aren't just placebo responders in the wrong group?

I realise that under observation, the same people may have similar responces to similar tests, but, there must be 1000s of different placebos. What i'm saying is, that if you take the idea of different placebos affect different people to different extents, aren't all placebo related tests pointless?

Also, maybe the true healing power of the placebo can never be harnessed for mass use (this would be great, obviously) due to the fact that they generally only work if you don't know they're doing nothing.

EDIT: Has anyone read Derren Brown's book? It has a good section on placebos, and new-age + chinese medicine etc.

Edited November 26, 2007 by cheddatom

[GreeneKing]

Quite an old thread eh:)

What I find interesting is that, aurally at least, if someone thinks for whatever reason that A will sound better than B then the brain actually hears differently e.g. There's a theory that says that thoughts can actually change our senses in a sort of positive feedback way.

There's a video of an experiment that attempts to prove this. I'll see if I can find it. This will link in with the placebo I suspect.

Otherwise I'd go with a lot of what's said here. Also if I learn some good bass lines with a certain bass and play them well in a band setting the bass earns my love.

Peter

[TimR]

Yes. 7 years old?!

It's pretty much accepted that humans rely on our sight more than any other sense. Our brain will override anything we hear, smell, feel, taste in favour of what we see.

Placebo effect is mainly because most of our illnesses are made worse by our negative emotions. If you are in pain for a long time, you will become depressed and end up needing far more painkillers to dull the pain than if you take a small amount early on. Many of us can cure headaches and other minor aches and pains just by disassociation. Placebo works in a similar way.

Edited February 16, 2014 by TimR

[White Cloud]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1392565948' post='2370069']
It's pretty much accepted that humans rely on our sight more than any other sense. Our brain will override anything we hear, smell, feel, taste in favour of what we see.
[/quote]
This is a generalisation. Many people (myself included) are not particularly visual and more inclined to experience experience from a kinaesthetic or auditory bias..

Regarding placebo...so much to say....not enough time...fascinating subject....pervades most of our lives to some degree....