Jazz bass pickup question for Fender tone gurus

[LawrenceH]

Hey all,
I used to run a jam night which meant I got to hear and play a fair few different basses. My absolute favourite tone-wise was a friend's maple fretboard jazz which had a really huge, aggressive mid-range honk and snap with still a decent amount of low bass. It was passive and as far as I know was an American standard, probably late 90s, maybe very early 2000s. All original parts as far as my friend knew.

I now have a Jap 75RI with maple neck and the alleged US Vintage pickups (AlNiCo?). The tone is pretty reasonable, sounds like a jazz, but the more I play it the more I realise it doesn't have anything like the huge tone of this other jazz, it is much smoother and less in-yer-face. Incidentally my second-favourite from that jam was a Fender Am Deluxe RW probably from the same period, which sounded similar (but not quite as good) and the pickups in that were definitely stock.

So...can anyone with an appropriately encyclopaedic knowledge of jazz basses tell me a) what pickups were Fender loading into their basses around this period, b ) where might I get some and c) given that I have a maple board Jap jazz that sounds quite lively acoustically, is finding similar pickups to whatever was in this mysterious wonder bass going to get me that magical tone? The neck pickup in particular was huge with an incredible growling, hollow honk.

N.B. I have fiddled with the setup quite a lot on my bass, I can't get close, and the character of this other bass was preserved through two very different setups (for at least a year until he had it adjusted it played like a complete dog, but still sounded immense). Ceramic pickups?

Anyone who can help me achieve this tonal nirvana is an utter legend.

Cheers
Lawrence

Edited April 19, 2010 by LawrenceH

[OutToPlayJazz]

As far as I know, the Fender single coils have always been equipped with alnico magnets, but I'm sure someone will know of one range or special that's the exception to this. The biggest tone changer as far as I've experienced on the Jazz is the body wood. Some of the ash bodied models really "sing" completely differently. I know that around 2000-2007 you could order an Am.Std with the ash body as an option over the usual alder.

I know the exact tone you mean as well - JohnGH has a lovely Japanese 75 reissue in natural ash with "American Vintage" pickups and that one has "that" sound. Pity I didn't keep that one, really. Luckily, the new Road Worn model I have now has a lovely sound and really shines with "that jazz sound" we all strive for.

Edited April 19, 2010 by OutToPlayJazz

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='811982' date='Apr 19 2010, 10:08 PM']As far as I know, the Fender single coils have always been equipped with alnico magnets, but I'm sure someone will know of one range or special that's the exception to this. The biggest tone changer as far as I've experienced on the Jazz is the body wood. Some of the ash bodied models really "sing" completely differently. I know that around 2000-2007 you could order an Am.Std with the ash body as an option over the usual alder.

I know the exact tone you mean as well - JohnGH has a lovely Japanese 75 reissue in natural ash with "American Vintage" pickups and that one has "that" sound. Pity I didn't keep that one, really.[/quote]

Thanks for the response - I think mine is the same model: natural ash, US vintage pups. It sings smoothly but it doesn't bark or honk! This magical other bass was quite a heavy instrument. Mine's not light though, and acoustically they're not a million miles away. One of the biggest things I remember though is that plugged in, you only had to dig in a little bit and it would give such incredible growl that it was almost like the tone you get with popping. Here is pic of the elusive beast in case that helps with identifying. Sadly (but wisely) my friend would never sell her!

[attachment=47760:bass.JPG]

[OutToPlayJazz]

Where are you based, Lawrence? If you aren't a million miles away you could bring it over and we'll experiment with it. I was also thinking that some DR Marcus Miller Fatbeams my help as well. They're still the best strings I've ever heard on a Jazz.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='812014' date='Apr 19 2010, 10:34 PM']Where are you based, Lawrence? If you aren't a million miles away you could bring it over and we'll experiment with it. I was also thinking that some DR Marcus Miller Fatbeams my help as well. They're still the best strings I've ever heard on a Jazz.[/quote]

Thanks, that's a really kind offer! Unfortunately I'm in Edinburgh but one day in desperation I may well take you up on that, I do have family in Lincoln/Louth which looks like it's not too far from you. I have Black Beauties on mine at the moment which are probably not the best choice for what I'm after. I believe he used Rotosounds (which I hate the feel of but would be prepared to suffer for that tone!). Even left on for months and months his strings still had a phenomenal amount of snap and grind which makes me think there was something inherent to that bass (and the similar active one that I mentioned). On my previous basses Rotosounds would sound dead within about 2 weeks, though I've not tried them on this one.

[JTUK]

Not sure it is that easy to pick the specs and get that tone. Some combinations just seem to gel better than others so you just have to find that one that sings for you, IME and then beg, steal or whatever...

You could do worse than talk to Aaron Armstrong about pickups and he might get you close...he could certainly tell what pickup config should do what, but I think the biggest factor is the woods and how they react together..IMV.

I have a RW board that does that sound far better than my maple...and even with a lot of EQ, the maple doesn't get that close.
It hasn't got that naturalness in that sound.
You are going to have to reconcile yourself that that bass you have doesn't do that for you...so start saving for that new one that you'll find. Then you have to decide whether to keep what you have as they supplement each other or sell your present bass, IMV

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='JTUK' post='812074' date='Apr 19 2010, 11:36 PM']Not sure it is that easy to pick the specs and get that tone. Some combinations just seem to gel better than others so you just have to find that one that sings for you, IME and then beg, steal or whatever...

You could do worse than talk to Aaron Armstrong about pickups and he might get you close...he could certainly tell what pickup config should do what, but I think the biggest factor is the woods and how they react together..IMV.

I have a RW board that does that sound far better than my maple...and even with a lot of EQ, the maple doesn't get that close.
It hasn't got that naturalness in that sound.
You are going to have to reconcile yourself that that bass you have doesn't do that for you...so start saving for that new one that you'll find. Then you have to decide whether to keep what you have as they supplement each other or sell your present bass, IMV[/quote]

Cheers - a shame as I love this bass, especially the unplugged tone - and that was the problem with my old Ibby, unplugged it sounded way different to the tone I was after that I felt no electronics change would sort it out (though Nordstrand Big Singles made it work a lot better and would be a straight up killer tone for some people). I kind of hoped I had the wood right and it was a matter of sorting out the electronics. I will keep an eye/ear out for the 'perfect one' and beat away at this one in the meantime!

[JTUK]

Try a Lakland DJ or JO.....maybe.

I think the reason why the small bass makers/luthiers use actives as it is a way to get round that variable of wood combinations.
At least a decent pre will make most basses sound BIG...but there is no real substitue for that special bass with a great sound.
Most people think very carefully about getting rid of that one...IMV

[gjones]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='812025' date='Apr 19 2010, 10:41 PM']Thanks, that's a really kind offer! Unfortunately I'm in Edinburgh but one day in desperation I may well take you up on that, I do have family in Lincoln/Louth which looks like it's not too far from you. I have Black Beauties on mine at the moment which are probably not the best choice for what I'm after. I believe he used Rotosounds (which I hate the feel of but would be prepared to suffer for that tone!). Even left on for months and months his strings still had a phenomenal amount of snap and grind which makes me think there was something inherent to that bass (and the similar active one that I mentioned). On my previous basses Rotosounds would sound dead within about 2 weeks, though I've not tried them on this one.[/quote]

Well I don't like the feel of Rotosound Swing Bass strings either when new but they make a huge difference to the sound when I put them on my Jazz Bass. I originally bought it strung with Ernie balls and they give it a smoother sound but when I string it with Rotosounds it really comes to life. Strange thing is I can only really get that growly aggressive sound when the strings have been played for a while. When they're new they're all bass and treble (and as you say feel horrible).

So before you go out and buy new pickups try it with a set of Rotosounds. You may get the sound you're after.

[Jazzjames]

Some blatantly obvious suggestions coming up, and I don't mean to offend, just trying to help:

1.) You do have the Bridge pickup doing the majority of the work right? Jazz basses sound great with both pickups on full, but if you want that growl you need to bias the pickup selectors to the bridge pickup. (obviously)!

2.) What amp are you using? Some amps that I have used don't have a large dynamic range that accommodate the large dynamics of a Jazz bass. Some amps I have used sounds cool for Precision basses, but I can't find a good tone for Jazzes, so that may be a factor.

3.) As far as strings go, I would say DR Hi Beams, or Sunbeams. I personally have Hi Beams on my bass, and didn't find the Sunbeams worked particularly well with mine, but nickel is supposed to be more magnetic and therefore make the bass sound more responsive. (I have a set of the afore-mentioned Fat Beams on the way to try). Rotosounds - Cheap and nasty in my opinion, but give them a go if the DRs aren't your thing.

4.) Are you plucking the strings by the bridge?

I hope something in there is helpful. I know it's obvious stuff but thought it may be of some use...

James

[richrips]

Not sure if this has been mentioned as i skim read the thread.... (guilty!)

75 reissue basses have the bridge pickup nearer the bridge than the standard fender. This gives the neck pickup a slightly more biting, thinner, treble-rich sound. This gives the 75 an edge for slap as the brighter bridge pickup mixed with the standard neck pickup gives a more pre-mid-scooped tone. However, moving the pickup towards the bridge makes it less deep, which could explain why your 75 sounds slightly less full and "in your face" compared to the standard jazz, where the bridge pickup is further from the bridge, near the stingray spot which gives thicker, punchier mids.

All of the above is subject to opinion and i could be barking up an irrelevant tree, but when i had it explained to me it made sense. kinda like the difference between Larry graham (standard pickup placement) and Marcus Miller (75 Jazz pickup placement).

As for pickups, i'm using dimarzio ultra jazz's in a bass and they don't have too much top end, but are very full and thick, much like their owner.

Rich

[LawrenceH]

Thanks for the suggestions people - I will probably try both Rotosounds and Fat Beams in the future. I like the Hi Beams I have on my other bass, they are very musical but a little too refined for the sound I'm after on this instrument.

I'm varying where I play and the pickup volumes - but in actual fact the bass I'm comparing to had an awesome neck pickup tone! And it's me playing both basses in each case, it's none of that 'it's in the fingers' business here. Amp-wise, again I've used both through the same amp and even on a little Ashdown Electric Blue it sounds magic. It had standard spacing as does my (Japanese) reissue. My desire for a 70s spacing jazz tone is separate to what I'm after here! I did wonder if through-stringing/bridge upgrade would help as mine just has the bent plate bridge, but from what I understand it makes more of a difference to the bass and sustain, rather than the mid-range. I don't care about sustain, I only need the note to last about half a second max but I want that half second or less to really punch me in the chest and grind my ears up!