Interesting observation this evening...

[thisnameistaken]

On a 4-band bill, the three other bands all used Stingrays/Sterlings (two played with picks, one with fingers) through an Ampeg head and an Ampeg 8x10.

I used my Thumb bass through a Hartke LH500 and a Schroeder 1212L.

I could barely hear an effing note any of the other bass players played all night - they just blended into the rock sludge of their guitarists. But apparently I was "really loud" and everybody I spoke to said it was nice to hear what the bass does because "usually you can't hear it".

Indeed.

[LukeFRC]

and a wonder if there was a bit of gear snobbery, cos this fella has a funny looking bass and his own silly little amp, I mean why wouldn't he use an AMPEG stack?

I think better band will sit and work out all the sounds fit together.
For instance my regular gig is at church through an ashdown rig. my P bass sounds nicer in my bedroom but unless theres only a small band ends up just bulting out the mix. My streamer however takes up less space in the mix, making everything sound clearer and also means I can be heard better. It i took my H&K head, and even my techamp 2x12 it would be even cleaner and more articulate. Even though it is a fraction of the size.
However in other situations the P bass and some more muddy compressed rig sounds amazing.

horses for courses. just some people don't realise there are other ways to do things than copying the pictures in melody maker/NME

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='812122' date='Apr 20 2010, 01:06 AM']some people don't realise there are other ways to do things than copying the pictures in melody maker/NME[/quote]

Well yeah I did chuckle a bit to see they all had Ernie Ball basses, but I just couldn't believe how sh*t they all sounded. The guy from the headline band was actually a really good player too, but most of what he was doing was inaudible. Just the occasional barrage of tuned "ping" noises if only one of the guitarists was playing, but as soon as they both started playing he disappeared.

First band were a three-piece, and I [i]still[/i] couldn't hear the bassist! I'm not even joking.

[Rich]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='812112' date='Apr 20 2010, 12:40 AM']On a 4-band bill, the three other bands all used Stingrays/Sterlings (two played with picks, one with fingers) through an Ampeg head and an Ampeg 8x10.

I used my Thumb bass through a Hartke LH500 and a Schroeder 1212L.

I could barely hear an effing note any of the other bass players played all night - they just blended into the rock sludge of their guitarists. But apparently I was "really loud" and everybody I spoke to said it was nice to hear what the bass does because "usually you can't hear it".

Indeed.[/quote]
Do you reckon the sonic difference was down to your bass or rig? I'm guessing the latter.

[Musicman69]

Well if you couldnt hear the bass in a 3 piece you either have your bass ears tuned out or that band should jack it in!!
That paints a very sad picture.. probably a moany guitarist telling him to keep it down.
I shouldn't presume such despicable practises are on-going in these 'so called' civilised times.

[Stingray5]

I don't suppose it had anything to do with your band simply having a better sound balance overall, compared to the other three bands and the "rock sludge of their guitarists" (not to mention possibly their drummers, too) simply drowning out the respective basses?
Or perhaps the other bass players just weren't man enough to be driving Stingray's/Sterling's!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Rich' post='812130' date='Apr 20 2010, 01:19 AM']Do you reckon the sonic difference was down to your bass or rig? I'm guessing the latter.[/quote]

I think a bit of both and a bit of how I play compared to how they play, I suppose. But I reckon the bass had more to do with it than the amp (we were all DI'd, I was post EQ but I don't know about the others).

I think it's that thing again, where bass players don't really think about where they can make themselves heard or how to use the instrument as something other than a reinforcement to the guitar part, and instead just aim for a sound they've heard on an intro somewhere that they liked. And ultimately they get swamped because the guitarists are going for the same sound. And then every band you go see sounds the same, because the sound guys are also shooting for some sh*tty rock bass sound they heard on an intro once. Etc.

Oh and next time I walk into a venue and the sound guy looks like he's trying to look all moody I'm turning around and walking out again. We're there to play rock star, not you. Turn our f***ing mics on and sort out our f***ing monitor mix, you can update your Facebook status and order your pizza when you've spent five minutes doing your f***ing job.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Musicman69' post='812132' date='Apr 20 2010, 01:25 AM']Well if you couldnt hear the bass in a 3 piece you either have your bass ears tuned out or that band should jack it in!!
That paints a very sad picture.. probably a moany guitarist telling him to keep it down.[/quote]

The bassist was the front man. I was talking to the drummer and apparently him and the bass player have been playing together for years, they got the guitarist in recently, so nah it can't have been that.

I've seen them before and it was the same story. Maybe that's just "their sound"?

As for us having a better mix than the other bands - I doubt it. See above rant about the sound guy.

[Musicman69]

Its all fun and games 'till someone loses an eye..

Lazy soundmen beware!!

[beardybass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='812135' date='Apr 20 2010, 12:31 AM']Oh and next time I walk into a venue and the sound guy looks like he's trying to look all moody I'm turning around and walking out again. We're there to play rock star, not you. Turn our f***ing mics on and sort out our f***ing monitor mix, you can update your Facebook status and order your pizza when you've spent five minutes doing your f***ing job.[/quote]

haha, excellent!

That is weird though, I reckon you're right about it being the way they play. They probably don't put enough oomph into it!

[The Funk]

They don't know how to EQ properly. That's all it is.

[M-Bass-M]

[quote name='The Funk' post='812167' date='Apr 20 2010, 06:58 AM']They don't know how to EQ properly. That's all it is.[/quote]
This?

When I started practicing with my band some 6 months ago, I started off with my Shuttle volume cranked up to 3/4. And still found myself struggling to be heard. Now, after reading a bit more here about eq's, I'm now happily breaking through the mix with the volume now less than 1/2.

So I would suggest that the difference at the gig was the better eq setup on your Hartke amp - you said you DI'd post eq?

Mark

[The Funk]

[quote name='M-Bass-M' post='812177' date='Apr 20 2010, 07:34 AM'][...]I would suggest that the difference at the gig was the better eq setup on your Hartke amp[...][/quote]

Exactly what I was thinking. A lot of people who don't really know/think about bass amps try to get as low a sound as possible. With most amps/cab, that's great for some distorted rumble but you won't be able to hear any actual notes.

[steviedee]

[quote name='The Funk' post='812167' date='Apr 20 2010, 06:58 AM']They don't know how to EQ properly. That's all it is.[/quote]

What he said....

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='M-Bass-M' post='812177' date='Apr 20 2010, 07:34 AM']This?

When I started practicing with my band some 6 months ago, I started off with my Shuttle volume cranked up to 3/4. And still found myself struggling to be heard. Now, after reading a bit more here about eq's, I'm now happily breaking through the mix with the volume now less than 1/2.

So I would suggest that the difference at the gig was the better eq setup on your Hartke amp - you said you DI'd post eq?

Mark[/quote]

The key to being heard onstage is EQ.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='812208' date='Apr 20 2010, 08:32 AM']The key to being heard onstage is EQ.[/quote]


and that includes other people's EQ... A point drummers and gtrs don't often get.
Blanket wall of sound gtrs are maybe understandable for 3 pieces..until the gtr goes to a solo..
but it leaves little room for others..
Drums need to be turned as well for the band mix.

And keys.... stay off the f****** left hand down there...!!!!!!

But mostly it is about stacks, IMV

[Les]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='812208' date='Apr 20 2010, 08:32 AM']The key to being heard onstage is EQ.[/quote]


I quite agree, thats why I di pre eq, I don't want anything I do to monitor myself to affect the sound through the PA.

The op said everyone was di'd, so I assume everything was through the PA. if so, it's the sound guy. I'd shoot the bastard.

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='Les' post='812220' date='Apr 20 2010, 08:53 AM']I quite agree, thats why I di pre eq, I don't want anything I do to monitor myself to affect the sound through the PA.

The op said everyone was di'd, so I assume everything was through the PA. if so, it's the sound guy. I'd shoot the bastard.[/quote]

From past experience with doofus soundguys who want all basses to sound like subsonic sludge, I suspect that you're all right. Maybe as EBs can tend to be a bit mid-scooped it was all too easy to obliterate the lovely mids? Our drummer runs our PA and I have to battle to get my 'proper' sound with midrange present.

Jon

[M-Bass-M]

Given all the above comments on getting your EQ correct, how then can you as a bassist ensure that you're loud enough on stage?

It's easy to do in a practice room, firstly because you're in direct control of the eq and volume, and seconly because you can directly hear the mix.

On stage, however, you're not only at the mercy of the sound guy, but also your monitoring zone on stage is completely different to what the audience hear. Does anybody have any good tips on ensuring you get a good sound mix?

Mark

[theosd]

For what it's worth I found it difficult in both my 3 piece originals (with acoustic guitar) and 5 piece covers bands to get my old Ray 5 to really cut through and sound defined using my Markbass CMD 121H combo. Since then my new Schecter Custom 5 has in fact garnered much praise from people saying it just sounds so much better in the mix through the same amp; much more rounded and bassy.

I have to admit I much prefer my £175 Schecter to the £700 Stingray in terms of both bedroom playing and gigging. It does the bass's job so much more effectively. Just goes to show you can't always rely on the high end gear to deliver on all fronts. I get the impression that EBMM basses are designed to sound nice soloed but when introduced into a working band situation can be a bit too mid and top heavy to be really defined in the bottom end. IME they share a lot of frequencies with both the electric and acoustic guitars, and so their famous 'midrange punch', ultimately, was for nowt!

[Conan]

[quote name='theosd' post='812244' date='Apr 20 2010, 09:24 AM']I get the impression that EBMM basses... can be a bit too mid and top heavy to be really defined in the bottom end. IME they share a lot of frequencies with both the electric and acoustic guitars, and so their famous 'midrange punch', ultimately, was for nowt![/quote]

That's interesting! My impression of the MM sound is that it is quite scooped in the mid-range, which might account for the bass players on that bill being a bit indistinct in a full-band mix?

Just shows that everyone's ears are slightly different!

[OldGit]

[quote name='M-Bass-M' post='812231' date='Apr 20 2010, 09:11 AM']Given all the above comments on getting your EQ correct, how then can you as a bassist ensure that you're loud enough on stage?

It's easy to do in a practice room, firstly because you're in direct control of the eq and volume, and seconly because you can directly hear the mix.

On stage, however, you're not only at the mercy of the sound guy, but also your monitoring zone on stage is completely different to what the audience hear. [b]Does anybody have any good tips on ensuring you get a good sound mix?[/b]

Mark[/quote]

Get a good sound guy and trust him. You have no control over the front of house sound beyond that. Be friendly, understand what you are asking for and talk their language without telling them their job. Know what to ask for in technical language. "a fair bit of 1.7k" is more useful than "lots of twang".

+1 about eq on stage, working it out with your band. Not trying to all be in the same bit of the tone spectrum, getting the guitarist to take the lows and low mids out of their sound and making sure the keys person has a magazine to read or something else useful to do with their left hand....

Too many people confuse audibility and volume and just keep turning things up when they can't hear themselves leading to a MAD arms race.
That's why people say Schroeder users are "loud" when what they mean is "Blige! I can really hear you though the mix, for once" because of the inherent mid punch the cabs have.

And add dynamics to your arrangements to give space.

Edited April 20, 2010 by OldGit

[Conan]

Great advice from OG ^^^

A lot of sound guys are not musicians [i]per se[/i], so knowing the techno-geek stuff and talking to them in such terms can help with some of them. But yes - get to know them!

[thepurpleblob]

It's funny isn't it.... I've been through all sorts of gear and, frankly, with a bit of fiddling and assuming enough amplification (bass shifts more air and so needs more power - physics) I can get heard. However, I always keep coming back to my StingRays. They've always sounded the best across the board to me. A Precision might be better for chugging away on an E string and some exotic Jazz-a-like for fiddling around up-high but for just going out and playing stuff I have always favoured the Rays.

I know enough about EQ to know that I don't know anything. What I do know is start with it all set flat and hope that works. If you're boosting bass then you're probably doing it wrong.

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='Conan' post='812249' date='Apr 20 2010, 09:29 AM']That's interesting! My impression of the MM sound is that it is quite scooped in the mid-range, which might account for the bass players on that bill being a bit indistinct in a full-band mix?

Just shows that everyone's ears are slightly different! [/quote]

It usually is mid-scooped! I think people confuse lower mids (ie what a P does in spades) with proper low bass (which can sound indistinct).