Interesting observation this evening...

[El Bajo]

I find if I EQ my Markbass CMD 121H to how I like my bass to sound it just doesn't cut through, yet if I adjust it while the band is playing during sound check to get the levels right its sounds really good. However when I play the adjusted EQ without the band it sounds terrible on its own. Strange.

[Conan]

[quote name='El Bajo' post='812266' date='Apr 20 2010, 09:43 AM']I find if I EQ my Markbass CMD 121H to how I like my bass to sound it just doesn't cut through, yet if I adjust it while the band is playing during sound check to get the levels right its sounds really good. However when I play the adjusted EQ without the band it sounds terrible on its own. Strange.[/quote]

That's fairly common. Often the "sound in our head" works at low volume, but bring in other instruments and more volume and it just doesn't work. There is probably some very technical reason for this, to do with the way speakers work or how we perceive sound....

A good example of using different EQ frequencies can be found in some of Stanley Clarke's recorded material. He usually plays the "solo" bass with a very "middly" sound while someone else (live) plays the "bass" line with a much more scooped tone. Both instruments can be clearly heard because they are not competing with each other in the same frequency band...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccI8WgmcDLA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccI8WgmcDLA[/url]

Edited April 20, 2010 by Conan

[cheddatom]

this is why you need pedals. 1 setting for no guitar, 1 setting for some guitar, 1 setting for loads of guitar.


Obviously then you have to get carried away and buy 100 dirt pedals

[51m0n]

Its all about frequncy mixing, gents.

That is; carving chunks out of all the instruments' sounds where you need the other instruments to poke through, the upper mid in the bass can shine, as its often nasty on guitar, the low mid on bass can be cut a bit (not too much) to allow the bottom of the guitar, the top of the guitar is not over the top of modern funk bass, but is over the top of most rock bass.

This littany goes on for pages, and is different for every band.

Then there drums to take account of (esp kick and snare, hats are waaaaay above everything in real terms).

Finally vocals, presence between 3 and 4.5 Khz, bottom can be as low as 80 Hz, but really you're looking at 120Hz for a fella, and higher again for a lass. There's some nasty nasal stuff in there too in the upper mids (can let other instruments take up that space). Make sure you have high pass filters engaged on all the mics other than bass and kick. That can dramatically clean up a live (or studio) mix. Modern kick sounds have a lot less low end than people think, they are all about punch and slap, bass can easily fit under the kick in metal, funk, pop, jazz, and rock. As long as there is enough mid info to make it pitch intelligable still.

Its actually not easy to do, especially when you take into account stage volume feedback etc etc. You need good gear onstage, and in the PA but more than that you need seasoned pros who actually know their shizzle on stage and off.

Look I dont understand why anyone would do live sound if they didnt love it, I really care that every band sounds the best they possibly can when I get to do a bit of live engineering, I will offer suggestions to help them sound better on stage an out front, I will listen to the rigs and and band before I go back to the desk, I'll mic whatever needs micing (bass amos in particular) etc, but if they ignore me, they're utterly screwed, cos I wont be able to do a thing for them, until that point I wont even consider facebook . But I love doing live sound, I love making a bunch of amateurs sound utterly awesome, I really love it when they bother to say thanks afterwards (which is very rare).

Those LH500s are massively loud, way way in the league of an Ampeg + fridge IMO, and a Schroeder will be far more audible than the Ampeg everytime, especially if the bassist at the amp controls hasnt got a clue.

If you play with more space in your grooves rather than thudding out 8ths all the time, and if you play some counterpoint to the guitars you will also be more audible than a bassist who doesnt. Warwicks have massive mid range capabilities too (just listen to Fishbone if you are in doubt).

All in all you've given yourself all the weaponry a bassist could ever want to get himself or herself heard, and you know how to use it - doesnt surprise me at all that you sounded way better than them.

[OldGit]

@51m0n

Can you just explain hi and low pass filters?
Thanks

[cheddatom]

I played a gig the other day, and the sound guy seemed to just match everything to the volume of the guitar on stage. So, while he got a (really, very very) good sound for all bands, we were the only band at a reasonable volume for the gig. I had to stand outside for the other bands as i'd lost my ear plugs and it was literally making me feel sick.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='OldGit' post='812350' date='Apr 20 2010, 11:07 AM']@51m0n

Can you just explain hi and low pass filters?
Thanks[/quote]

hi pass "lets through" everything ABOVE a certain point
low pass "lets through" everything BELOW a certain point

So in general, use a high pass to roll off lows, and a low pass to roll off highs.

[OldGit]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='812358' date='Apr 20 2010, 11:12 AM']hi pass "lets through" everything ABOVE a certain point
low pass "lets through" everything BELOW a certain point

So in general, use a high pass to roll off lows, and a low pass to roll off highs.[/quote]

Thanks

[Happy Jack]

In the same way that I might ask whether there's a London-based bass tutor who could spend some time with me & give me some tips on improving my playing, is there a London-based EQ tutor who could provide some practical guidance on what all the above means to me, using my gear, in my band situation?

I could really, REALLY do with improving my understanding of how EQ works and what it can do for me.

[SteveK]

[quote]I could barely hear an effing note any of the other bass players played all night - they just blended into the rock sludge of their guitarists. But apparently I was "really loud" and everybody I spoke to said it was nice to hear what the bass does because "usually you can't hear it".[/quote]
Not knowing the venue and not having been at the gig and heard the bands, it's impossible to make any kind of useful assessment. However, for the sake of discussion...

There's nothing wrong with[i] any[/i] of the gear listed.
From what you say, my guess would be that[i] you/your band[/i] play quieter on stage than the other bands, enabling the FOH engineer to do his gig and get a decent mix.

Maybe, you should be thanking the engineer, instead of... er...

BTW there are many bands/FOH enginners that actually favour the [i]wall of sound[/i] approach.

[Conan]

[quote name='SteveK' post='812424' date='Apr 20 2010, 12:10 PM']BTW there are many bands/FOH enginners that actually favour the [i]wall of sound[/i] approach.[/quote]

True. And there are many musicians (including bass players!) who are far more bothered about what [i]they[/i] can hear of themselves (i.e. on-stage sound), than what the punters can hear! It's nice to enjoy your own sound, but surely it's more about the sound of the band as a whole and the experience of the audience?

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='SteveK' post='812424' date='Apr 20 2010, 12:10 PM']There's nothing wrong with[i] any[/i] of the gear listed.
From what you say, my guess would be that[i] you/your band[/i] play quieter on stage than the other bands, enabling the FOH engineer to do his gig and get a decent mix.[/quote]

Honestly I think it was more that the rocker's favourite scooped bass tone just doesn't work. So my little Warwick sounded much more present than their basses through the PA, and my little Schroeder was probably more audible on stage, just because it's got buckets of mids.

I know there's nothing wrong with Stingrays and Ampeg gear, but all these bands were using them to get that famous sound and, in the end, it just meant nobody could hear them.

[SteveK]

[quote]True. And there are many musicians (including bass players!) who are far more bothered about what they can hear of themselves (i.e. on-stage sound), than what the punters can hear![/quote]
Yep, that was the point I was trying to make - about onstage volume.
An Ampeg rig in the wrong hands can be a recipe for disaster.

[Rich]

So many guys go for that -face eq, eradicating everything between 100Hz and 1kHz from their sound, and then wonder why they can't be heard properly. Oh dear

[quote name='Conan' post='812253' date='Apr 20 2010, 09:33 AM']A lot of sound guys are not musicians [i]per se[/i][/quote]
It's bloody handy when they are though! The best live sound I have ever had -- and one of the very best we've had as a band -- was by our very own Joe Garcia

[cheddatom]

there's a difference between cutting through and contributing to the overall sound. A lot of bands don't need a bass sound that cuts through, the low rumble to reinforce the guitars is enough.

[theosd]

[quote name='Rich' post='812453' date='Apr 20 2010, 12:36 PM']It's bloody handy when they are though! The best live sound I have ever had -- and one of the very best we've had as a band -- was by our very own Joe Garcia [/quote]

+1

My best sound - on stage and out front - was done by a singer/guitarist of local band 'Kingskin' (good stuff, check it out!) workingat the Boileroom in Guildford.

[theosd]

[quote name='Rich' post='812453' date='Apr 20 2010, 12:36 PM']It's bloody handy when they are though! The best live sound I have ever had -- and one of the very best we've had as a band -- was by our very own Joe Garcia [/quote]

+1

My best sound - on stage and out front - was done by a singer/guitarist of local band 'Kingskin' (good stuff, check it out!) working at the Boileroom in Guildford.

[gjones]

[quote name='El Bajo' post='812266' date='Apr 20 2010, 09:43 AM']I find if I EQ my Markbass CMD 121H to how I like my bass to sound it just doesn't cut through, yet if I adjust it while the band is playing during sound check to get the levels right its sounds really good. However when I play the adjusted EQ without the band it sounds terrible on its own. Strange.[/quote]

+1
I know the feeling

It's weird, when I tell other musicians that a good bass sound on stage, when the band is playing at a decent volume, is a VERY difficult thing to achieve.......they look at me as if I'm an idiot. But sound engineers know exactly what I mean. It depends as much on the acoustics of the room as it does on the sound coming from the speakers.

Edited April 20, 2010 by gjones

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='gjones' post='813032' date='Apr 20 2010, 08:56 PM']when I tell other musicians that a good bass sound on stage, when the band is playing at a decent volume, is a VERY difficult thing to achieve.......they look at me as if I'm an idiot. But sound engineers know exactly what I mean. It depends as much on the acoustics of the room as it does on the sound coming from the speakers.[/quote]

I think a lot of people do over-think their sound though. They might find themselves a nice niche in the mix but then they get worried that they're not achieving all those descriptions that get bandied around in bass adverts (deep, growl, bite, grunt, tight, powerful, snappy, bright, etc.). Note that if you achieved them all, you would leave no room for anyone else to be in your band.

Or maybe they worry that they've only twiddled two knobs when they've paid for ten, or the graphic EQ doesn't look as happy as it's supposed to, etc. It's very easy to concentrate on your gear instead of your ears.

Edited April 20, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='812459' date='Apr 20 2010, 12:40 PM']there's a difference between cutting through and contributing to the overall sound. A lot of bands don't need a bass sound that cuts through, the low rumble to reinforce the guitars is enough.[/quote]

Very good point of the day. It depends what the band needs. I wouldn't ever forget the old saying, "the bass is just there to make the guitarist sound good" - it's very often completely true!!

[Prime_BASS]

For me, mid boost or flat with my jaguar. Plus I think i know when to let loose and riff and when to hold back and strum the crap out of the root notes.

As to gear, I love my jag, how it sounds deep and growling and when flat it sits nicely, with a small mid boost and a treble cut, I've found it to be a lot more defined without it being trebly.

Although I'm trying my power jazz with my new head Thursday to see if I can gig with that, and achieve the same result.

[Prime_BASS]

For me, mid boost or flat with my jaguar. Plus I think i know when to let loose and riff and when to hold back and strum the crap out of the root notes.

As to gear, I love my jag, how it sounds deep and growling and when flat it sits nicely, with a small mid boost and a treble cut, I've found it to be a lot more defined without it being trebly.

Although I'm trying my power jazz with my new head Thursday to see if I can gig with that, and achieve the same result.